233. Nourishing Dance: Conversations on Food, Body Image, and Wellness with Monika Saigal

[00:00:00] Hi, I am Dr. Chelsea. This is Passion for Dance, where it's my mission to create happier, more successful dancers through positive mental skills. And today I got to speak with Monika Seigel, a registered dietician nutritionist, and certified eating disorder specialist. She was also a professional ballet dancer and she worked on the performance nutrition team at Julliard, and currently works with the San Francisco Ballet School and Company.

As well as a private practice. Her mission is similar to mine. We are all about advocating for dancer, health and wellbeing.

In this conversation, Monica talks about her definition of a healthy relationship with food and the crucial role of nutrition in a dancer's life. Elaborating on how it goes beyond just fuel for your body. We talk about creating a supportive environment in dance schools. The impact of social media misinformation on dancers, eating habits, and the signs of disordered eating that parents dance teachers and peers should look out for.

Monica also shares her new book Nourishing Dance, which serves as a [00:01:00] resource for dancers and those involved in their training and care. It gives real practical advice to foster a healthier relationship with food and body image. I have actually already looked through it a lot as a dance educator and a dance parent, and it's incredibly helpful.

So if you have a dancer in your life. That you care about. This is important education to help support their health and wellness. Here's my conversation with Monika.

Welcome to Passion for Dance. I'm Dr. Chelsea, a former professional dancer, turn sport psychologist, and this podcast is for everyone in the dance industry who want to learn actionable strategies and new mindsets to build happier, more successful dancers. I know what it feels like to push through the pain, take on all the criticism, and do whatever it takes to make sure the show will go on.

But I also know that we understand more about mental health and resilience than ever before, and it's time to change the industry for the better. This podcast is for all of us to connect, learn, and share our passion for dance with the world.

Dr Chelsea: Hi Monika. Welcome to the [00:02:00] show.

Monika S.: Hi. Thanks so much for having me, Chelsea. I'm so happy to be here.

Dr Chelsea: Me too. Will you please introduce yourself? Tell us a little about your dance background and what you do now.

Monika S.: Yeah, I would love to. Um, so I'm currently a registered dietician nutritionist, a certified eating disorder specialist. My first career was as a professional dancer, mostly ballet, but I, you know, did some other things as well. And being a dancer is such a huge part of what fuels my passion for the work I've been doing, for the last almost 20 years at this point. Um, there are a few different aspects to what I do. A, a big part of it is providing one-on-one counseling to dancers and performing artists in my private practice. And then for the last decade plus, I have been doing a lot more work with dance schools and companies and programs. Really hoping to work to shift dance culture to better support dancers health and wellbeing.

Um, and so in those settings I do things like provide workshops to dancers and dance educators and parents and healthcare professionals, um, and consult on [00:03:00] wellness initiatives. So currently I, work with both the San Francisco Ballet School and Company. Before that, I was the dietician for the JKO School and Studio Company for four years.

And before that I spent eight years as part of the performance nutrition team at Julliard. And so I just feel really fortunate for the opportunities I've had to do this really meaningful work. You know, I'm on a, a mission to help dancers better nourish and care for themselves and help the people in dancer's lives, the people who train and care for them, support them in those goals.

Um, I guess I should mention, I'm based in New York City, but I do work with clients and, and dance companies and schools throughout the us. And like I said, I'm so happy to be here having this conversation today.

Dr Chelsea: Oh, thank you. I think we have similar missions just going about it very differently, but just taking probably some of our own lived experiences and then you add the education and now trying to make a big difference in the, the ballet world and the dance world more broadly.

I wanna start with [00:04:00] something really broad and then we'll just see where this goes

so what do you see largely as the role that nutrition plays for a ballet dancer's life or a dancer's life in general? And, you know, some people will say it's just fuel and we just wanna leave it there. Or do you see it as something more than that? How do you like to talk about nutrition with dancers?

Monika S.: I love this question. So, you know, I think broadly speaking, uh, food is a lot more than fuel. It's culture and connection and celebration and pleasure. Um, and a a lot more than that too. And I think as we help dancers connect to these other roles that food plays, it can be a really important part of helping nurture a healthy relationship.

Food. Um, I think there can be a lot of variability in how dancers might connect to some of these different roles and that can be impacted by things like neurodivergence or medical conditions or food insecurity. And so I think it's always important to keep in mind that there's a lot of, um, individual variability and that there's not just one right way to have a healthy relationship with [00:05:00] food that's gonna look different from dancer to dancer.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Oh, I like that. Can I ask if about your own journey and your own, um, relationship with food, and not necessarily in like a clinical sense, but has it changed like when you were a dancer to when you retired to , how that's looked different.

Monika S.: Absolutely. Yeah, I think, you know, for, for a lot of us who have transitioned from being a dancer to doing some type of work related to dancer health and and wellness. What we do is influenced by our own experiences. I think both my personal experiences, the experiences of my friends and peers, and then now having worked with dancers for so many years, the experiences I have kind of through my clients to see what's changed.

And a lot of, unfortunately, what has not changed, um. I would say, looking back at my time as a dancer, I never got any nutrition education, so I went to a performing arts high school. I majored [00:06:00] in ballet performance in college, and then I danced professionally for about five years. I unfortunately had a, a very short career due to injury, but.

I never learned how to take care of my body. Like I really just, you know, had no idea what, a healthy relationship with food looked like for sure. Or even what like proper fueling looked like. I was always dieting and doing things to try to change my body. I felt a lot of pressure to do that. , And it wasn't really until I left the dance world that I think I started to heal my relationship with food.

I think, you know, at the time that I danced, there wasn't as much attention on the importance of like kind of whole dance or health as they there is now. And again, that's one of the things that motivates what I do. I feel like if I had a better sense of how to fuel myself and take care of myself, maybe my dance career would've been longer.

Dr Chelsea: absolutely. I appreciate your honesty and I was thinking how much I feel the same way, and that's why I asked and went ahead and got personal right away, but that. A lot of what we do now is what we didn't [00:07:00] have and how much the industry has changed. Uh, but I think for me, as an outsider who doesn't know anything about this, some of it can feel like, okay, now we do know better, so you should know better and you should do better.

Where, you know, we used to not, we, we could just say, I didn't have the education. I didn't know. And now as a dance parent, as a dance teacher, I can say, well, now I should know. But how much, control do I have over that?

Monika S.: What I would say is yes and no to, there is a lot more information now I think that. For sure. There's a lot more helpful information out there about, um, nutrition and, you know, eating disorder prevention and supporting dancers in developing better body image.

At the same time, I think that there can be such a misguided focus on the minutia of nutrition in a way that's not helpful or not based in fact. Um, and I think perhaps especially 'cause of social media, it can be much harder to [00:08:00] sort out fact from fiction in terms of nutrition and what's truly healthy versus not.

So I think there's certainly, we do have access to a lot more information, but I think the amount of misinformation can make it perhaps even more confusing than it was before.

Dr Chelsea: I so appreciate you saying that. 'cause that's how I feel. I feel like it's just an overwhelming amount of information that the lay person doesn't know what to trust. And the same thing happens in my industry where people who don't have the right education are still talking about it and are like, that's not really how this works.

Or we're focusing on the wrong thing. So, okay, so let's dig into that. Since you brought up social media and the misinformation, and I agree and I am one to get stuck in it, not knowing what to trust, what is some of the misinformation that you see about, healthy eating and what we should really, be looking for as dancer?

Monika S.: Yeah, so I think that unfortunately a lot of what is kind of presented as healthy eating tends to be much more restrictive, [00:09:00] even disordered. It kind of comes at nutrition from a place of trying to micromanage body size and shape, generally shrinking, you know, your body, which I think in almost all cases actually moves people further away from health.

And I think that's really different from what I view as healthy eating. Um, and a really critical component of that is having a healthy relationship with food. I, you know, there, there is content about that online, but you have to sift through all of, you know, the other misinformation to, to sort of find it.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah, so your focus is more on building that healthy relationship rather than like, this is good, this is bad,

Monika S.: definitely do not focus on, this is good, this is bad. I try to stay away from those kind of like dichotomous ways of looking at food. 'cause I think that that really doesn't support a healthy relationship with food. And I don't know that we can help dancers fuel optimally without addressing the relationship with food and then the very related relationship with their body or body image.

I mean, those things are so intertwined.

Dr Chelsea: Absolutely. Which is the challenge in dance. [00:10:00] So building on that, I think a lot of dancers don't have a healthy relationship with food. So can you speak a little about when you think that starts, in your practice and kind of both, maybe age, but also kind of within our training and where that can stem from?

Monika S.: Yeah, sure. I think it might be helpful if I just share a little bit more information about kind of what I mean when I say healthy eating, because again, that can mean so many different things and sometimes the idea of healthy is actually kind of warped or often is warped. So when, when I talk about healthy eating, to me that means that a dancer is eating enough.

And that's often my top priority in terms of nutrition is that they're getting enough energy and nutrients, what they need for dance in life. I think balance and variety are really important, and those things also help with adequacy. I think it means eating consistently and regularly throughout the day, so dancers aren't having, you know, long gaps where their body is not getting the nutrition that it needs.

I think from, you know, kind of describing more of the relationship [00:11:00] with food, a healthy relationship with food to me is enjoyable and flexible and peaceful. And I think when you have a healthy relationship with food, it's really characterized by having greater connection to the body, um, and caring for your body rather than contributing to disconnection and neglect, which I think when we think about some of.

Um, the, the perhaps more harmful or unhelpful nutrition advice in a lot of ways that contributes to disconnection. So, for example, ignoring the things that, you know, your body is telling you. Um, I think, as I said earlier, a healthy relationship with food is very individualized. It's gonna look different from dancer to dancer, and it's gonna change throughout your life too, depending on circumstances and training load and, you know, your age and all kinds of things like that.

I think it's, we really have to keep in mind how much a dancer's relationship to their body or their body image is related to their relationship with food. Um, now going back to the question of when it might develop, you know, I think if and when a dancer might develop a more [00:12:00] fraught or unhealthy relationship with food, it can vary based on so many different factors.

Um, I think generally speaking sometimes that it might come up are times of significant body changes. So puberty can be, you know, a time of high risk. I think when there are major life changes. So a dancer might leave home to go away for training or to go to college, or stressful life situations like having an injury.

I think those kinds of things can contribute to a more unhealthy relationship with food. I think a dancer's relationship with food is also affected, obviously by the environments they're in. So what is their home environment like? What is their dance environment like? What is their school environment like?

Who are the people you know in, in their life, their friends, their family, their role models, their teachers? And how are those spaces and people either contributing to reinforcing diet, culture, messaging, or hopefully countering it. So for example, the idea that thinner is better [00:13:00] or leaner is better.

That's, you know, one of diet culture's major messages, really harmful message. Um, and so hopefully we're, we're countering that. I think the, the more that dancers are in spaces and around people that are reinforcing. Positive messaging around food and body, the more likely they are to develop and maintain a healthy relationship with food.

Um, so I think it can kind of start whenever, and hopefully it doesn't start at all.

Dr Chelsea: Right, of course. And I, as I was thinking, uh, of course it can start with so many different factors. Just like, like anything, you know, there's not one answer to this. But I like what you said about. Connection and that healthy eating is about that connection and that resonates so much when so much of what I talk about is how awareness is first and knowing what your thoughts are, knowing how you feel, and, uh, being able to maintain that.

So that clicks for me, for dancers to be able to see that kind of connection piece.

So a lot of the listeners I know are teachers and coaches and [00:14:00] parents and the adults in the dance room, and I can imagine. I myself am also sitting here thinking, well, what am I supposed to say? What, what do I not say? How do I talk about this in a way that is supportive? And I also can imagine it might be different for young dancers as opposed to if you're teaching, you know, pre-professionals and professionals.

And that's gonna shift developmentally, of course. But, uh, could you speak a little bit to like the teachers in the room of how they, maybe should or should not be talking about healthy eating?

Monika S.: Absolutely. I think, you know, with all dancers, especially young dancers, we have to be really cautious about how we're speaking about food and, and what the, the messages are that we're sending, you know, both implicitly and explicitly also thinking about what we might be role modeling. Um, I think one thing that's really important is to not link food choices with changing body size and shape. Um, I think that happens, you know, a, a lot both in, in families and in dance spaces because that's a message that diet [00:15:00] culture, perpetuates. I recently heard a 6-year-old say that she heard, um, eating bread was bad for you because it makes you fat. And to me, you know, that's so sad on so many levels.

First of all, it's really in line with what we know. That these thoughts start at a very young age and how harmful it is that we're encoding, those kinds of ideas, , in such young kids and, and linking being in a larger body with, that being a, a negative thing. And so, you know, again, I think we have to be really careful about the way that we talk about food.

Um, young kids don't do well with healthy eating kind of messaging or even kind of teaching them about nutrients. We are all born with this amazing ability to regulate our intake to, you know, eat when we're hungry and stop when we're full. And I think that the more for younger dancers we can help, um, support them in honoring their cues, then they don't have to relearn that stuff when they're older.

We also wanna be careful that we're not using food as a reward or punishment. I [00:16:00] think one of the, the kind of classic things is like, okay, well you can eat dessert when you're finished all your vegetables. Um, thinking about speaking about food in a neutral way, so. Even inadvertently, we can use a lot of language that feels really judgmental.

So thinking about things like calling something a treat or a guilty pleasure or like you said earlier, this is good or this is bad, or this is healthy, or this is unhealthy. That all makes things feel too charged. And so just calling the food, you know what it is? This is broccoli, this is a cookie.

Also coming back to the idea of how related, how a dancer feels about their body is to how they take care of it. I think from the youngest age, we wanna start, um, nurturing, body appreciation, and then hopefully continue that, you know, throughout life. Young kids are so good about getting so excited about the things their bodies can do, right? Like, look at me, look at what I can do, look at how high I can jump. And to be able to kind of nurture and reinforce that I think is so valuable. And [00:17:00] again, like I said, continue it, you know, into adulthood.

A lot of that stuff carries over with adult dancers too. But as dancers get older, I think that they really benefit from learning more about, um. The, the roots and harms of diet culture and under fueling. I think that, I don't know that teachers would be doing this so much, but from like a parent point of view because, you know, teen dancers often go away from home for training, whether it's for a summer intensive or, you know, even year long training.

Really helping them build up their confidence and, experience in putting together healthy meals and snacks in the kitchen and, um, cooking skills and how do they budget and how do they shop? And learning about what contributes to under fueling in dancers like. Misinformation that we talked about earlier.

Um, how do they prevent it? How do they critically evaluate the messages that they see on social media? , How do they honor their unique needs [00:18:00] when no one around them is doing the same thing? So they're really paying attention to like how comparison might be negatively impacting them.

And then I think also helping, dancers realize the role they play in creating a positive environment. So I think for parents, for dance teachers and for dancers themselves being really cautious that we're not engaging in diet talk or negative body talk, being really mindful about how we speak about our own bodies and the bodies of others, I think those are all things that, um, can be useful in, in helping promote a, uh, healthier relationship with food.

Dr Chelsea: I appreciate you breaking that down. I think it's obviously gonna change depending on your role, if it's your child, if you're the teacher, you know, that will look different. Uh, but modeling is there either way and how we talk about it, our own bodies, how we talk about others bodies. Yes. I was just talking with some teachers who were struggling 'cause it's, uh, was the time that we're recording this it's, winter, show season and costumes come in and then all of a sudden, you know, [00:19:00] this little child's costume is too small. And then what is that conversation in the moment? What happens and why is it too small? And, uh, how those things can be handled well and when they can. Spiral, you know, and it's those small moments where like, yes, you're not in charge of that child's mental health, but in that moment how you talk about it could matter.

So

Monika S.: Yeah. And you are, you know, you do have a responsibility in protecting their both physical and mental health regardless, you know, of what your role is. And I think, you know, dance teachers have so much to do. They're not meant to be nutrition experts or, or therapists, but they, they should at least be aware of, things that they can do and say that can either help support dancers in developing healthier habits and mindset versus things that might hinder them in, in that. So in the example you just gave for, sending the message that bodies are supposed to change. Yeah. Okay.

Here, costume doesn't fit, no big deal. We'll fix it. We can alter it, you know?

Dr Chelsea: Right. Yeah. We can change it.

Monika S.: Yeah, [00:20:00] exactly.

Dr Chelsea: especially for a lot of children, like the time your size versus the time it comes in a natural growth spurt could happen and Yeah. I'm trying to talk about it in a way that's not about your, like the costume doesn't fit your body rather than your body doesn't fit the costume.

Right.

Monika S.: Absolutely. I mean, and again, like preparing for that, you can expect if you're working with kids, their bodies are gonna change a lot and sometimes it happens in a very short timeframe. And so, um,

Dr Chelsea: I can appreciate what you said about Yes. It's not your job to be a nutrition expert or a therapist, but yet we can be aware of these things and be supportive, and I think that leads into. Prevention, maybe early intervention around some of this work, which, uh, of course could be involving therapists and professionals such as yourself could also be, happening in, in the studio or, or people are noticing early signs. So maybe we start at the beginning. 'cause there are differences between eating disorders, disordered eating, like different, the language that people use.

Can you break down some of the terms in the language that people may come across?

Monika S.: [00:21:00] Yeah, absolutely. I think that that's important to distinguish because. They're, some of these terms are kind of used interchangeably and they're not exactly the same thing. Um, you know, I think we can think about these eating behaviors occurring on a spectrum. So we think about on one side we have a healthy mindset and healthy behaviors around food and body.

And then you kind of move more into some disordered behaviors. Um. And then on the other end of the spectrum would be like a clinical eating disorder. So disordered eating behaviors very often are the same as an eating disorder. The the main difference is that they tend to not be happening as frequently and the consequences are not as severe.

Yet. Um, I think yet being, you know, the, the key word there is a very important, um, point of intervention. I do consider dieting to be a form of disordered eating. So again, when we're approaching food from, uh, with a restrictive mindset or with the goal of shrinking our body size and shape, I think that's moving us away from a healthy relationship [00:22:00] with food and body.

Um, so hopefully

Dr Chelsea: Okay. No, that's great. And, uh, ed, I, I talk about kind of mental health and mental wellness in a similar, it's a spectrum. There's not a, you're healthy and you're not. There's a lot in between.

What are some of the things that you have found to contribute to that disordered eating behavior?

Monika S.: So I think there are a lot of different things that can, contribute to dancers developing these more unhealthy dieting behaviors or disorder eating, or even a clinical eating disorder. Um, I think under fueling, which is really common in dancers it can often happen unintentionally, and even if it's unintentional, that because of the changes.

That that causes in the brain and body can actually lead to developing disordered eating, even if the under fueling didn't start with that. Um, I think also stressful life circumstances and body changes, as I mentioned. But in my work, I would say one of the most common, um, triggers for these, disordered eating behaviors that I see is negative body [00:23:00] comments, and sometimes that's directed at the dancer. And dancers are also very affected by hearing those comments directed to people around them. Um, and so that's an area I, I feel like we really need to do a much better job of addressing, in our society, but also in dance for sure.

And I would say another really common contributing factor is peer influence. And so this is where education is also helpful so that dancers are learning about. Um, the things they can do to be part of creating a protective environment. So I think unfortunately, dancers often learn about dieting behaviors and unhealthy weight control behaviors, um, from their peers.

And I think when these kinds of behaviors are accepted and feel normalized and even encouraged, just by seeing the people that we look up to or that we're friends with doing them, that can kind of lead to a contagion effect where it sort of spreads in dance schools and companies. I think when we're talking about clinical eating disorders, it's important [00:24:00] to know that those are bio-psychosocial conditions.

There are serious mental health conditions that have, you know, various things from each of those categories can come together and lead to their development. So, is one negative body comment going to cause an eating disorder? No, but in a dancer that has other predisposing factors that by the way, you are usually not gonna know about, could that one negative body comment be the catalyst that starts in eating disorder A Absolutely.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. Thank you for sharing that.

, What you said about early intervention is. Where I wanna dig in because I think that's a good place for maybe listeners to gain some awareness around what they might see or what to look out for, kind of signs where they might want to check in with. I guess again, roles gonna change. Like is a parent seeing it is a, is a teacher seeing it? That looks different. But regardless, early signs for intervention

Monika S.: Yeah. I think that's really important for [00:25:00] everyone to be aware of and, and like you said. Depending on what your role and relationship is with a dancer, what you're able to pick up on is gonna look a little bit different. Um, you know, whether you're a parent or you're a dance educator or a healthcare.

Care professional or a peer. Um, so I think weight is the one thing that most people think of to be on the lookout for, which it is important to be on the lookout for, but we don't want to to stop our awareness with only that, um, sign or symptom. But certainly weight loss is a flag, in growing and developing dancers.

A lack of expected weight gain or growth or development. So for example, if you're a healthcare professional or a parent, you might have, um, the ability to see a, a dancer kind of fall off their normal. Growth chart percentiles, that's definitely a sign that we need to intervene because dancers should be continually growing and developing and, and gaining weight.

Weight loss is always a, a red flag. Um, we also wanna be on the lookout for, well, let me just [00:26:00] add to that, um, that weight loss is always a red flag. Lack of appropriate weight gain and growth. Is also a red flag. And many dancers who are struggling with disordered eating or an eating disorder or under fueling won't have that as a visible or noticeable sign.

And so it is important that we're on the lookout for other things. So some of the performance indicators, um, to keep in mind, you might notice that a dancer's strength or endurance, or energy is lower than usual, or it's not increasing as you would expect it would. Like generally, they're. You know, they're working really hard and you would expect their technique and artistry and strength and all of those things, endurance to be improving more than you're seeing that can often speak to there being a, um, under fueling issue for whatever the cause might be.

You might notice that they're having a harder time concentrating or focusing. So maybe somebody who's great at picking up choreography is. Kind of slower or making more mistakes than usual. You might see that they just seem less motivated and [00:27:00] aren't enjoying dances much.

That can also be related to any of these issues. Um, kind of moving on to some physical signs and symptoms. I think digestive issues are very common. We definitely wanna be on the lookout. For menstrual irregularity. So again, this would probably be something that more apparent or a healthcare provider or peer would know.

So if dancers don't get their first period by 15 or they're not having regular periods, that is not normal for dancers and oral contraceptives do not protect your bones or help jumpstart your period. I feel like that myth. Keeps getting, perpetuated. If you are eating enough to support your activity level, you should be menstruating regularly.

And so that's definitely something we wanna look into. That would be a, a flag. Um, if they're getting sick a lot, they're getting injured a lot, they're having slow healing injuries, those can all be signs. Then we also wanna be on the lookout for some of the behavioral indicators. So, are you noticing that they're seeming much more anxious or stressed around meals?

[00:28:00] Are you hearing or seeing signs of food restrictions? So maybe a dancer saying, oh, I can't eat that, or I don't eat that, or. You know, they're saying, oh, I'm not hungry a lot. Um, you might notice some isolation or withdrawing from their usual friends or activities. You can notice mood changes like increased anxiety or depression or irritability.

Um, and you might notice like, this is a hard one because dancers spend a lot of time in the mirror, but you can, you might be able to pick up on them spending more time than usual in the mirror. You know, kind of noticing their response to it. Does it seem like they're being hypercritical and it's having a negative consequence for them?

Um, they might also be avoiding the mirror, or hiding their body. So those are some of the things to kind of keep your eye out for.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. So important in so many different ways that this can show up. I think that's important to think about. Like you said, we assume it's weight related, but it may not be that, or that's only one thing to look for. So if we are seeing these things, and [00:29:00] again, role matters, so whether you're a teacher, a parent, uh, but also I work a lot with high school and college, and I feel like the first people to see this, like you said, are a peer.

So if you see any of these signs, what advice do you have for those, individuals and who care about this dancer?

Monika S.: I think for the, the. The dancer, teen dancers, adolescents in in particular. Um, I, I think for everyone, right? So for, dance educators, for staff or parents, for healthcare professionals, we all need education on, you know, what to look out for. And, and what do you do if you are concerned about a dancer?

What do you say? What do you not say? I think ideally, . The school or company has an actual policy to that kind of outlines how you're going to handle these situations. Like, um, maybe they have a designated person that dancers can confidentially report their concerns to. I think that can be really helpful.

Who is gonna be kind of keeping track of the concerns and then determining when is the time to [00:30:00] talk to the dancer or parent? You need to have a resource list of professionals that you're going to refer to because the goal is. Unless you are a health professional who specializes in these issues, your role is not to diagnose.

It's just to, to determine this dancer could benefit from an evaluation and then have a list of specialists to send them to. So I think that. Schools that have that in place, that that guides the teen dancer as well too. Um, and this is actually one of the workshops I give to, um, the older dancers, is I do think they, they also need to know like, what do you do when you're, you're worried about a friend?

So may maybe I'll start there and we can come back to the, the other pieces if this doesn't answer all of it. But I think that, um. I often recommend starting with talking to a trusted adult, especially if they are picking up on some really concerning signs, symptoms, or behaviors. So if they're, you know, their friend is like dizzy or they know they're skipping meals a lot, or maybe there are signs [00:31:00] of purging, um.

I definitely think it's important to involve a trusted adult. That could be their parent or their teacher or a coach, or maybe a wellness provider, like their physical therapist or dietician. And then that person might be the, the appropriate one to take the next step. So you shared your concerns and then they, they handle the next part.

Ideally using the policy, you know, to sort of outline that. I think that, um, if dancers decide that they want to say something to a friend, I think there's some things we wanna keep in mind. And a lot of the, these things apply to a parent or healthcare professional or you know, dance administrator as well.

The first thing is to make sure that you are speaking in a private. And quiet setting when you have enough time to have a conversation. Um, so the dancer feels comfortable talking. I think just starting by asking how are you, is a really great way to open up the conversation and depending on what they [00:32:00] say that might sort of determine next steps.

If you feel like you want to express concerns, I, I recommend and don't think it's helpful to confront on specific behaviors or appearance or weight. Um, so instead saying something like, I'm concerned about you because you don't quite seem like yourself, or you seem more down or stressed, um, I'm here if there's anything you wanna talk about.

Um, or again, asking how are you? And seeing if that opens up the door to further conversation. , And depending what the dancer. Or how the dancer responds, then there might be a follow up. , Of, well, I think this piece is gonna differ if it's a dancer versus a, a parent or, um, the school. If it's a dancer who's speaking to a friend, they might say something like, you know, speaking to a a dietician or a therapist can be really helpful.

I can help you make an appointment. I can help you find someone. And then ideally, these resources are readily available in the dance school, so they already have people to connect [00:33:00] with. Especially if the school doesn't have their own wellness team. I think if you are a parent or a school who's having this conversation, then you can say, I think it's important that we get an evaluation from a dietician or a therapist.

How would you feel about that? So again, it's still an open conversation, but you might be able to insist more on, um. The need for that, especially depending on the, the symptoms that you're seeing or the signs that you're seeing. I think it's also to, for, for the dancers, thinking about just being a good friend, like continuing to support, your friend, inviting them to do things, checking in with them, reminding them about the things that you love about them.

I think those are all ways to be, you know, um, a part of helping them get help, even if it's not immediately in that moment.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah, I think that's so well said. And again, I see all the parallels with how we address mental health concerns of, you know, confronting is not usually helpful. You're just gonna shut down. But continuing to be that supportive person, but expressing I love [00:34:00] you and I'm worried about you, can be really powerful for, for dancers to hear.

Yeah,

Monika S.: Absolutely. And again, I think that for a school and parent, it's a little bit different, right? So if there are things that are really concerning in terms of the dancer's safety or wellbeing, that's gonna be different than, um, how, you know, what a friend might say.

Dr Chelsea: Absolutely. Yes. And again, knowing your role and how you can best support, and even, I'm sure, I bet you would agree that whether even if you are coming from a school administrator or a parent place, like you still lead with that love and care, but yet you may, like you said, may take a little bit more of a stronger push towards what needs to happen than a friend might, but it's.

It's still rooted in I care about you and

Monika S.: a hundred

Dr Chelsea: see

Monika S.: And I also think, still asking the question of how do you feel about that? Because I think autonomy is so important, you know, depending on the age of the dancer and the situation it, it might be different in how much like you feel like it has to happen. But I still think it's important for the dancer to have the a say.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Oh, it's so huge to be able to ask how they feel [00:35:00] about your concerns, how they feel about a possible appointment somewhere. It's, yeah, that's a really good point.

I wanna take this broader big picture. You said at the very top about how some things have changed, a lot has not changed, and still things that we would like to be different in our dance world regarding this topic. What maybe the good things that have changed and then what you would still like to see improve?

Monika S.: Yeah, I, I love this question and I, I would imagine that in, in your work you probably have similar experiences of, it can be really discouraging if we only focus on all the things that we want to be different,

Dr Chelsea: Right?

Monika S.: um,

Dr Chelsea: We just see the mountain ahead of us and not how far we've climbed. It gets a little upsetting.

Monika S.: A hundred percent. And so I think I find a lot of hope and motivation to continue the work and, and just acknowledging the things that are changing and, and have changed, even if it's much slower than most of us would like. Um. So I would say one area that I'm encouraged by is that I do see a lot more schools and companies offering nutrition [00:36:00] sessions to dancers, um, and offering, nutrition and mental health resources.

I think that's something that is becoming more common. I would definitely like to see that continue. I would like to see it expand. It's not everywhere. , I'd also like to see a little bit more vetting of the providers who are the ones. You know, giving the nutrition seminars, for example, I feel like I, um, hear.

Unfortunately, still too often from dancer clients of mine that they're getting, these workshops and in dance settings and some of the information is presented in kind of unhelpful ways. And so I think it's important, like education is so important, but that we're also asking questions about philosophy and approach of the people who are providing that information, whether it's nutrition or mental health or injury or whatever.

And then I think an area. So, so that's an area I feel good about. And, you know, I'm, I'm hoping that we continue making progress there. I think one area I'd like to see a lot more movement in is, [00:37:00] um, making education and training. For dance educators and staff and leadership, something that's much more widespread to help them learn about how to be a part of creating a supportive and protective environment.

I really believe that teachers and and staff, almost all of them, want to do what is best for their dancers. Um, but I think unfortunately they inadvertently land up causing harm because. Um, they repeat the same things in, in the same practices of how they were trained or the way that they sort of grew up in dance, um, because they haven't really done the work to reali or, or even thought about, like, maybe I need to evaluate some of these things and figure out what are the places where I need to do some, you know.

On learning and relearning and healing. What do I need to shift? What do I need to say or do differently? And I think education is so important to, to help promote change [00:38:00] there. I think another really key area I'd like to see shift is. More body diversity in dance, diversity in body size and shape and gender and ethnicity.

Um, especially in certain genres like ballet, where I think it probably remains the, the kind of, there's the least amount of diversity, um, in, in that, that genre. Especially in body size and shape. And I think that that's something that not only will help dancers health and wellbeing, but I, I really do think it's something audiences want to see.

So in the end, it helps the art form as a whole too, just making it, you know, more relevant and, , sustainable.

Dr Chelsea: Oh, I love all of that. That is such a beautiful vision of where we can be and what we're still working towards. We're gonna keep fighting for that vision. Uh. You said how education is important and I wanna take that moment to say that, uh, not only you have your workshops, but I know you have a new book too and I wanna make sure we mention it 'cause it's a great resource of education for people listening.

So, it's called an Essential Guide on [00:39:00] Nutrition, body Image and Eating Disorders, will you share a little about the book and who it can support.

Monika S.: Yeah, I would love to. It's called Nourishing Dance and then the An Essential Guide to Nutrition, body Image and Eating Disorders. It came out, uh, last summer, um, and it's really, it's, so I wrote it for dancers. I would say 14 and up and everyone involved in their training and care. So particularly for dance educators and parents and health professionals who work with dancers, but really anyone who's involved with a dancer.

You know, in any way. And it's an expansion of the work that I've been doing with dancers, but also with, um, dance schools and companies and organizations to educate on some of the things I, I was just talking about. Like, how do we all become a part of creating a more protective and supportive environment?

What are, things that we can do and say that help dancers in developing a healthier relationship with food and their body in themselves.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Oh, I'm so excited to take a look, look at it for myself. Of course. I think that's [00:40:00] the kind of resources we need to be able to dig deeper for anyone involved for the dancer's lives.

So last question before we wrap up. I have been talking a lot about the lessons we learn as dancers that we carry into adulthood. And like we've both said, a lot of what we do now came out of our own experiences and wanting to make the dance world better.

So thinking about life skills, big picture lessons, how would you finish the sentence because of dance?

Monika S.: I love this question so much, and I was actually talking to a colleague about this very recently. I, because I think in, in my work with dancers, sometimes when dancers decide to stop pursuing dance as a a career, they can feel like I've spent so much of my life doing this, and now what? I'm not good at anything else.

And I actually think what you learn as a dancer makes. It gives you skills to be good at so many different things and I, I feel that for myself. So, you know, I would say because of dance, I know I can do hard things and you know, it's part of what helped me write a book for sure.

Dr Chelsea: Absolutely. [00:41:00] Oh, I so resonate with that. And I think that's such an overarching lesson. Like you said, you can do hard things, whatever that pivot is, if it stays in dance or if it goes somewhere completely different, , you've learned to tackle that challenge. . I appreciate that.

Thank you so much. Uh, before we leave, we let everyone know where they can find your book, learn about workshops if they wanna connect with you further.

Monika S.: Yes, I would love to. So, um, I have two websites. My book focused website is nourishing dance.com, and then that has, you know, book reviews and links to different places that you can purchase it. , And. Links to podcasts and articles and things like that as well. I also have a, my private practice website, which is ms nutrition.com it has a lot more information about the services I offer, including workshops for, dance schools and companies and dancers and one-on-one counseling.

Um, and people can also connect with me on social media, on Instagram. I am at Nourish, head to Point, and on Facebook, I am at Monika Seidel Rd.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Thank you so much, Monika, for sharing. I know this is such a challenging topic for so many [00:42:00] people and I appreciate you breaking it down and being a part of the show today.

Monika S.: Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you for listening to Passion for Dance. You can find all episode resources at passion for dance podcast.com and be sure to follow me on Instagram for more high performance tips at Doctor Chelsea dot Otti. That's P-I-E-R-O-T-T-I. This podcast is for passionate dancers and dance educators who are ready to change our industry by creating happier, more successful dancers.

I'm Dr. Chelsea and keep sharing your passion for dance with the world.