218. Building Better Dancers: Cultivating Confidence and Individuality in Dance with Jason Pickett

219 - Jason Picket

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Dr Chelsea: Hello and welcome to Passion for Dance. I'm your host, Dr. Chelsea, and it's my mission to create happier, more successful dancers through positive mental skills. And today I'm excited to welcome Jason Pickett, a renowned dance teacher and choreographer, and the founder of No Starving Artists. Jason and I talk about our love for teaching First, the evolving landscape of college dance, and the critical role of individualism and improvisation in developing today's dancers.

Additionally, Jason discusses the business side of dance, advocating for a collaborative and transparent approach to ensure more sustainable careers for artists. And finally, Jason is the first to answer the question in my new series because of dance. So listen, to hear the life lessons that Jason has taken from being a dancer and a dance teacher.

Welcome to Passion for Dance. I'm Dr. Chelsea, a former professional dancer, turn sport psychologist, and this podcast is for everyone in the dance industry who want to learn actionable strategies and new mindsets to build [00:01:00] happier, more successful dancers. I know what it feels like to push through the pain, take on all the criticism, and do whatever it takes to make sure the show will go on.

But I also know that we understand more about mental health and resilience than ever before, and it's time to change the industry for the better. This podcast is for all of us to connect, learn, and share our passion for dance with the world.

Hi Jason. Welcome to the show.

Jason Pickett: Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Dr Chelsea: Absolutely. I'm excited to chat with you again. Will you please introduce yourself a little, tell us about your dance journey and the work you're doing now.

Jason Pickett: Absolutely. Uh, my name is Jason Pickett. I go by, Hey, it's Pickett Online. And, um, I'm first and foremost a dance teacher. That's the simplest answer for sure. Uh, I started teaching when I was 16 and that was all I really had any interest in doing. Started dancing professionally, kind of as a default, just, uh.

People that I knew other, you know, choreographers and teachers in [00:02:00] Utah where I, I live, um, you know, knew that I also danced alongside of my teaching. So I did that for some time. And then, you know, I always kind of found my way back to teaching every single time. , Currently I run a company called No Starving Artists.

We have a podcast, uh, clothing. Um. I oftentimes say we, it's just me. Uh, I, I have a podcast in clothing. I also offer dance critiques for, dancers and teachers to submit their choreography, um, for review. And then I do one-on-one mentorship for dancers as well. And then on the teaching side of things, I am a full-time faculty member for a reinforced dance experience, which is a convention and competition.

Uh, we just finished our first year this last season, and, um, I. Just kind of at this point just guests teach and choreograph all over the place, so I just travel from state to state and city to city and, , teach a lot of guest classes and do some competition choreography as well.

Dr Chelsea: [00:03:00] Yeah. Thank you. I'm excited to dig into some of this and what you just said though about being a teacher first and finding your way back to that. I. Really relate to that and I feel like that's not as normal. Or maybe people just don't say it. That for me, I started teaching in high school and then realized pretty quickly I liked being backstage more than I liked being the performer.

So will you speak to that a little bit more of like why teaching and was it, it was always more than performing or?

Jason Pickett: Yeah, for sure. Um, I mean, I, I love performing. I, I, I did. Um, the last thing that I did professionally was a a year contract with a professional company based out of Utah called Odyssey Dance Theater. And I, I loved that. It was amazing. It was actually my first time ever dancing on stage, like for a live audience. And it was just, I, I loved it. I was like, okay, I can understand this. Um, but I have just always gravitated towards teaching and I think it has a lot to do with just my introduction to [00:04:00] dance. Uh, when I started getting into dance, a lot of, dancers were transitioning to YouTube, so before. This point, dancers would kind of post videos on like forums online and stuff.

And I wasn't really privy to that. But once YouTube came around, um, I started seeing all of these dance videos from different choreographers, um, doing like concept videos and class footage. And then as class footage started to grow, that became something that I consumed so often. And so that's just kind of all I knew.

That was like my, those were the people that I was looking up to, were like these classroom teachers, these educators. And, , I didn't really have any sort of like, like I wasn't necessarily super inspired by like, dancers themselves, but by the teachers. And so I think that's what always just kind of drew me to it.

Um, and then it just kind of stuck.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. I think that it is a calling when we find it and we [00:05:00] love it. It's all we wanna do. I wasn't gonna go here, but now you just said that and I, I'm curious your thoughts about posting class material in today's world. I feel like it has really changed how you take class, and maybe that is also different from like a drop in class versus master classes or conventions, where on one hand I, I understand the need for it as a teacher and promoting yourself and putting your work out there.

Um, but. I think it can take over a lot of class. I don't know. I don't wanna speak for you. Your thoughts on, um.

Jason Pickett: Yeah, you can. And it's, it is kind of a topic that's getting a little bit more traction lately, I've noticed a little bit more commentary on my posts as well as other people's posts about, um, this sort of, uh, line being drawn over sort of when. Class should be filmed and, um, when it shouldn't, and, and things like that.

And it's always been something I've done. [00:06:00] So I, I think it's never really been a foreign thing to me because I've just always done it. And I think truthfully it benefited my dancers a lot. Um, just the fact that they were like dancing on camera so often and having that added pressure. I think I just also have always had a very, like, gorilla style to it. Like when I incorporate it into class, it, it's a very short portion of my classes. Um, it typically, it's just like the last round of groups. I just film those groups. Um. For a while, I was just like putting up a tripod in the front of the room and like I would just leave it there as like one static shot and then I would just film everybody all at once dancing.

Um, now, uh, I'm thankful to where I'm in a position where a lot of times I'm, I'm hiring somebody to come film my classes and I just give them very specific orders to focus on me. Um, I don't really. Not in a rude way, but I don't really care about the dancers that much. It's much more about me, [00:07:00] um, for that specific thing.

And then I tell the dancers the same thing when the, when the person comes in, I introduce them to whoever's filming that day, and I just let them know, like, you know, ignore them. They're gonna ignore you and they'll stay outta your way. Um, and uh, that way there's no sort of like added pressure. On my end for, for the class.

Um, and then I can just kind of go about my business and not really have to, like, I'm not too focused on curating anything. I'm just focused on teaching my class and then I can almost always guarantee that I'll get at least one clip. Um, and to me, if I get one clip out of the class, then it's worth it to me.

So yeah, that's, that's kind of my personal ethos around filming in, in class. I, I don't necessarily see huge issues with it. I also think sometimes people assume that I just disregard any sort of like input. And, and it's just, I mean, it's not the case. If anybody were to ever come up to me and be like, you [00:08:00] know, I'm not comfortable with you filming, or Please don't post anything from this class, then, you know, that would be that it, it'd be no big deal at all.

It's just like, okay, cool. Heard copy that. No worries. Um, it wouldn't harm me one way or the other, but I have been a part of, and, you know, bared witness to classes where filming took up a majority of class. Um, and I, I do think that's an issue. I think. From a consumer standpoint, more so than anything, , if I'm paying for a class, I think I have a certain expectation of what I'm gonna get outta that class.

And if I'm spending half the time just sort of watching other people film videos, I don't know that that's really money well spent. Uh, and I also think. The, the thing that I have a bigger issue with is the false narrative that it creates for dancers who consume that content. Because a lot of dancers see class videos and they, they make a lot of assumptions.

They make assumptions that that was, you know, the first time that that person did the combo. That that was the first take. [00:09:00] That, you know, a lot of things. And I think it builds a lot of it, uh, things mentally for dancers that just aren't realistic. Um. I think that's more of an issue with the filming of class than the actual filming of the class.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Oh, I appreciate that perspective. Thank you. I, I agree. I think it's when it takes over too much time that it's not fair to the dancer in the room, uh, the unfair perspective of what's happening and for people consuming it. Uh, but yeah, when it's more of a natural thing, it's not interrupting class.

It's about, you know, capturing your work as the creator too. I think that makes perfect sense.

Jason Pickett: It's also a tool that I use for, like me to see the quality of my classes too. Um, because, you know, I'm having to go through, you know. Hours of footage after, after a session and, and I'm watching all those clips and I'm like, Hmm, I don't like the way that I said that, or, I don't like the tone of the way that I said that.

Or, you know, I also spend a lot of [00:10:00] time when I'm reviewing that footage looking, you know, if there are dancers in the shot. I'm looking at their reactions as well, and I'm, you know, I'm kind of thinking like I'm, I'm trying to see like, are they engaged? Are they not engaged? Did I miss that while I was teaching?

Um, so it's also become a really powerful tool for, for me to be better at being an educator as well.

Dr Chelsea: that's amazing and so intentional. I love that. You know, we, we have access to video now in a way many of us didn't growing up as dancers, but to be able to be intentional about how you teach, uh, and looking back at that film, that's awesome. So. When you are traveling and teaching everywhere and having access to students across the country, uh, if not more than that, , will you share a little about what you are seeing in today's dancers, kind of the topics that you find yourself continually talking about, where they're struggling the most.

Jason Pickett: Yeah, I think we're seeing a big shift right now with, um, college dance in particular. Um, I'm noticing a lot more [00:11:00] dancers that are interested in dancing at a collegiate level. There's a little bit of geography involved with that as well. Um, depending on kind of where I am. In the US specifically depends.

But in general, that's a much, much bigger thing right now. Um, I think overarching, the thing that I come across the most often is dancers that are just really unsure about their own movement and really unsure about. Doing things on their own accord without somebody telling them what to do. Um, and I've, I've been coming across this more and more lately, and in their defense, the dancers are also al always really open about it.

Um, you know, they tend to say things like, uh, like I, I legitimately had a dancer recently that was like, I don't know what to do if I'm not told to do it. She was like, I feel really great about doing things I'm told to do, but I don't feel really great when I'm not. I think that's something I see very, very often is just dancers that [00:12:00] are not spending a lot of time moving. And I think, you know, I don't know. I think everything has to be a balance and I think dance. Forever, not just recently. We kind of obsess over structure and we obsess over, um, you know, naming things and standardizing things and, and you know, I think there's value in that, but there's also a lot that gets lost along the way if you're not careful with those processes.

Um, because dance first and foremost is. Is a, a cultural communicational exchange. It's, you know, it's people coming together and sharing feelings and thoughts and ideas with movement. Um, that's where it started and that's where it's going to end. No matter what we do, we're not gonna change that. Um, and so I think, you know, we lose sight of that balance sometimes.

And I think sometimes studios [00:13:00] struggle with like. Managing time and managing all of this stuff, which is understandable, but that's probably the biggest thing that I see.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah, I resonate with that. I grew up the ballet dancer that appreciated the structure and thrived in the structure. And without it, it was harder for sure. Uh, but. It's such an important piece of the art to be able to be expressive naturally. So is, is the answer like time on improv and time just allowing it to flow outside of structure or what do you see

Jason Pickett: Yeah, I think so. I think, I think improv's a huge first step for sure. I think a lot of studios, and, I do come across a lot of studios that have, you can tell that improv is a big part of their curriculum. Um, I think that's a really huge first step. I think another big thing is.

Understanding that we're not just teaching placements, but we're teaching intention behind those placements as well. Um, I see a lot of dancers that have [00:14:00] really good placement of their body, but their intention and their, their quality of movement and their textures are not quite there. And I think that that naturally comes about when you are improving.

I think when you, when you're exploring your own movement, you're naturally going to find the nuance in those, in that movement. Um, I think if you're, if you have a group of kids where they're not used to doing that, you sort of have to curate. That texturizing a little bit more and you have to kind of guide them a little bit more because they're, you know, they've already skipped a bunch of steps.

But I think if you're starting with Littles, I think the greatest thing that you can do with Littles is give them time to just do whatever they want. And the more of that time you can give them, the better. I think we've gotten into a place where we're like. Really into making like mini dancers really good.

Um, which is cool and I think it's fun to watch, but I think it [00:15:00] ultimately doesn't necessarily service them in the long run because, you know, we're setting them up to kind of be that they do what they're told and they do that really well, but their understanding of them as an individual is not as strong.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Oh. From a psychology perspective, I, I struggle with the intense competition in minis, and not that it's all wrong or wrong for every dancer, but yeah, we are creating. Little robots and maybe missing the creativity side. Yeah. Oh, I totally agree. So that makes me think too on the psychology side, that a lot of this is related to confidence and what you were just saying about the dancer who said, I'm good if you tell me what to do, but if I am improv or creating on my own, I panic and it, maybe it's collegiate auditions, maybe it's professional auditions.

I think you have to be comfortable in dancing for yourself, right. And letting that flow. Uh, so do you see that confidence connection too, when people are used to improv and are able to do that?

Jason Pickett: Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. I think [00:16:00] the most, most of the time nothing's absolute right. But most of the time if you see a really confident dancer or you see a really cool mover, they probably spend a lot of time. Improving or, or just dancing on their own. Um, you know, if you, and you'll, you'll see the, these kids every once in a while where it's like they have really cool style and just like, their whole energy is just really cool.

And, you know, every time you talk to them about their dancing, it's like, yeah, they, they spend a lot of time dancing for themselves. Um, and I think the best example of this is you look at like freestyle dance communities, which is where I started. In the street style world, in these freestyle communities, you see a lot of individualism.

It's, it's so celebrated like that is, that's how you rise to the top is by being really unique. Um, and so you have to spend time to explore what that means for you and what, what is different about your movement. [00:17:00] And I think we sometimes see those worlds bleed into each other a little bit more between like the concert studio side of dance and the more street freestyle side of dance.

We sometimes see it bleed over and it's always a really happy marriage when it does, but it's doesn't happen to often, and I think.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Jason Pickett: I think it's something that the studio and concert world would really benefit from, um, is that seeking of individualism. And we see it happen when dancers hit, you know, that senior year or after.

Um, and I, I think it has to do with them. They leave the studio and they sort of have an identity crisis of like who? Who am I? And so you oftentimes will see dancers start to go, you know, they start to go down specific paths or they find a style that they really are interested in and they start really diving into that.

And then you see them a few years later and you're like, whoa, this is not even close to the dancer that you were a few years [00:18:00] ago. And it's like, 'cause they found themselves and you know, they can do that. Inside of the studio. It's super, super possible, but it has to be facilitated. They have to have the opportunity to to, to do that.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Well, and you were bringing up that. College dance is becoming more popular in a path, and I agree there's more interest there. And that's a dynamic, speaking from that college perspective, where being the individual, being the one who understands yourself and having an identity and an audition, is gonna help you stand out for a team.

Even if the point once you're competing with that college team is to not be individual. Everybody's exactly the same, um, especially in like a pom or something where you want that kind of precision, but. I still think having that individuality is an asset to a team that wants everybody to dance with a similar style.

They still, it's both and it's like it's easier to go from, I understand myself and I am my own individual to [00:19:00] a assimilating to a team as opposed to I know how to be a, you know, robot dancer on my team and then find yourself later.

Jason Pickett: Yep. Yep, yep.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah, you can, but hard. Yeah. Which makes me think of, uh, another, it's a psychological construct, but it's really, I think you were actually talking about this on social recently about awareness and it's something that comes up, uh, like internal awareness.

I, like you were saying, I know myself, I understand myself. But also awareness of what's happening around you. Maybe that's bodies on the floor. Maybe that's what is my teacher really trying to say. Uh, and being able to cultivate that So will you speak a little bit about awareness and what you're seeing if dancers are struggling there?

Jason Pickett: Yeah, I mean it's really from a choreography standpoint. It's really noticeable when I'm working with a group of dancers who understand like formations and kind of staging and, and, and that, and they also [00:20:00] understand awareness of the bodies on the floor.

Um, and one, it makes it easier for me to mo to do my job, but it also. I think takes a lot of stress off of the kids as well because they're, they're, it's just sort of like a natural instinct. They're not having to think about a million things at once. Um, and I feel like I see, I see more often than not dancers who, who are lacking in those skills.

Um, and I think it's, I mean, who knows for sure. I think it could potentially be from. You know, teachers just not using a lot of formations, so the kids just aren't used to like navigating through all those different spaces. Um, but I also think it gives the opportunity for studios to open up, you know, I, a, a big thing that I do in a lot of my classes, even when I guess teach sometimes, is having the kids come up with, with combos of their own and, you know, doing it in groups and having them sort of like.[00:21:00]

Format themselves. And that's a, that's a skill. And it seems sometimes, like I can see where sometimes people are like, oh, that's, that could be a waste of time in class. But I mean, that's, we're there for them to interact with each other, you know, it's a group experience for a reason. So giving them that opportunity to lean on each other and work with one another and stretch their brain in a different way.

It all comes back to dancing it. It'll all come back to. You know when you're setting a piece and now those kids, they know what a one you, you say, okay, everybody get to 1, 2, 3, 2, 4, or whatever, and they know what it is because they've done it in their little groups before. Or you know, they're at home coming up with formations for a project that you've given them like.

I think it seems in the moment, like, what is the point of this? But then it ultimately makes your job way easier because now those kids know exactly what you're talking about. It also makes them much, much more appealing for professional work because [00:22:00] the amount of times where I was on a job and, um, I, I mean I distinctly remember doing, uh, a job for a live.

It was, it was a live performance at like a, a convention and, um. We had gotten there the morning before the actual show, and we staged everything, formatted everything. We had everything all good to go. The, um, one of the producers from the company, they showed up really late in the evening.

We were already in bed sleeping. They showed up really, really late. Came into the space and they were like, no, this is all wrong. We need to reorganize everything. The whole crew stayed up all through the night, reorganized everyth. We got there the next morning and they were like, all right guys.

The whole thing is different. The whole set is different. We have to restage the whole thing right now, and then we have to do it like live and you know. In that moment, as a dancer, you can't be stressed, you can't be overwhelmed. You can't [00:23:00] be caught off guard by that. You just have to be like, okay, cool, easy.

So, and same thing with dance team. If somebody gets hurt, if somebody gets hurt at a competition and you get a re space, it's gotta happen fast. If, um, you know, a choreographer comes in to set a piece and there's these really intricate formations and transitions, your ability to adapt to that. Is a strength.

So I think it is something that, um, needs to have just a little bit more focus, um, put on it because it's a really, it's a really big benefit for everybody.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Oh, I can appreciate that. And I had a similar experience in the ballet world where you've trained something and then you're going to do like a community experience, and they're like, you can perform in this type of setting, right? You can perform on this plywood stage. You're like, wait. Doesn't, I don't have enough space.

There's no way. And but yet as a dancer, you just show up and do it and you figure out how to adapt. Yeah, absolutely. And it's that practice. In adaptation, which I think is exactly what [00:24:00] you're getting at. And it's that mental skill of saying, this is not how I trained it, but I have to be able to adapt and perform it in a different way.

And maybe that's a different shape of the room. Maybe that's, you know, a gym floor to a Marley floor, you know, in front of mirrors or not. All of those things to be able to change how you practice it. Yeah.

The other kind of mental skill issue that I've heard you talk about and I just wanna dig into a little bit is comparison, uh, because it is still one of the number one issues I talk to dancers about, especially at like middle school, high school, um, even into college.

That comparison is so strong. So you share a little of how you've seen that show up in the dancers you're teaching.

Jason Pickett: Yeah, I think it's, I mean, it affects everybody. Um, I think, you know, from kids all the way to adults. I mean, I, it's something that I struggle with in, in the spaces that I take up is like, you know, are other people doing better than I am or is this person better than me? Um, I think [00:25:00] for, for kids it's harder because their identity is not fully formed yet. Um, and they also don't have as many,, grounding factors. I think their parents definitely act as that and, and, you know, some of their consistency in their schedule can act as that. But, you know, part of what helps me kind of come back to reality is like my wife or my kids or, you know, the value that I hold in those spaces.

I think the struggle when you're a kid is. You know, speaking to dancers, that is their identity. That is their, their wholeness is, is the studio. And so when, when that starts to waver, it can create a lot of stress and, and a lot a, a big dip in confidence because, you know, that is, that's their thing.

That's their groundedness, is the dancing. Um, I think. The combat is just constant reassurance, [00:26:00] constant reminder that like you being an individual is the cool thing you like you being you. At that point, there is no comparison because no one else can be you. You know, I, I often will tell kids in class, like, no matter how hard you try, you'll never be able to dance like me because you don't look like me.

You don't sound like me. You don't smell like me, nothing. Same thing. I'll never be able to dance like any of you. The goal is not to, to dance like each other or anything like that. The goal is just to kind of exist in the same space. Um, and I also often will introduce kids to, um, this idea that like, you know, we're not, we're not sort of all on the same path and.

There's people in front of us and behind us, and we're all sort of like either looking in front or looking behind, but it's, it's more vertical than that. You know, everybody's on their own individual path and I might be able to [00:27:00] look over and see somebody else a little bit farther down their path. But if I look in front of me, it's just open road for me to kind of keep going and we're all headed towards the same direction.

This person might get there a little bit faster, but. I'm still eventually gonna get there. I think for most kids it, if, if you explain it enough times and you give them that reassurance, it starts to make sense to them. And they're like, okay, cool. I think a lot of times, especially dancers like these are smart kids, that's why they're having trouble with comparison in the first place, right?

Like, because they're noticing the differences, they're noticing other people's strengths and weaknesses, um, because they're really intelligent and so. I think like, you know, when you take the time to explain it and you take the time to really build them up and celebrate that individuality, um, that right there creates a huge, huge difference.

The other thing I encourage dancers to do a lot is to like talk to each other. Like, it's one of the biggest pieces of feedback I give kids [00:28:00] when they're having trouble at competition specifically. I'm like, do you ever talk to people backstage? And they're like, no, never. Like start there. You know? Go back, tell someone they have a cool costume, or tell the person coming off stage that they did an awesome job.

Um, those little touch points in those little moments of conversation take pressure off the whole, the whole thing because we can sort of build up this idea in our head at competition that, you know, everybody's out to get us and everybody's sort of these individuals existing in the same space. It's like.

As soon as we start to break that down, the whole sort of like mysticism of competition starts to disappear and it's like, oh, this is just a bunch of us, you know, going on stage and dancing. Um.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Jason Pickett: I think that's really, you know, that's a lot of what the extent of what we can do because I also think the comparison is part of it and it's a part of life and it's a part of something that you have to learn how to navigate through on your own.

But I think if you have a good set of teachers in your corner that are giving you that reassurance and [00:29:00] giving you that validation of like, you know, you being you is cool and you know there's gonna be people better than you, there's gonna be people worse than you. It doesn't mean that you can't do. What you want to do?

Dr Chelsea: Yeah, that's great advice, and I like that metaphor. Remembering everybody's in their own lane. There is nobody in front of you. And you're right, I think it is strongly connected to identity, and I do, I see it the worst in the dancers who, like my identity is this dancer who is placing top five, or I am known as the leggy dancer.

Or I'm supposed to be the best hip hop dancer at my studio. And that is when it's hardest. Uh, but. Also, it is something to deal with. I, I still do it for sure. I can understand that it's not gone as an adult, but it's learning to manage that. And I think that's the mental toughness piece that I certainly talk about all the time.

But mental toughness is just. Learning how to handle the negative emotions. And I think there's this construct of people wanting to, I wanna make those negative emotions go [00:30:00] away. I don't ever wanna feel upset or sad or, you know, I'm like, that's not human experience. Right? So it's more so when that comparison comes up, have the strategy, like you said, to get that reassurance from people, to reiterate it to yourself, to look in your own lane, you know?

And maybe that means getting off social media, that's making it worse, but doing things to. To, to put the guardrails up a little bit. 'cause Yeah, and it's that identity piece. It's better when you have a, a multifaceted identity, right? Like you were saying with your, your family life and when you, you are more than just, than just that dancer.

Uh, I wanted to backtrack slightly. You was talking about teaching, uh, small things, teaching about awareness where it feels like maybe this exercise is pointless today, or people feel like it's not a big deal, but it makes things easier later and. I think that's just true for so much of what we're teaching.

Like you could do, you know, improv, you could do confidence building things. You can do awareness formations kind of things [00:31:00] that may not feel like a big deal, but then it makes applying corrections easier later. It makes resetting formations easier later. And I think that's so much of teaching and that's where we have to trust the teachers and trust that there is a long-term plan.

It's not just, uh, you know, creating perfection. In today's class, like that

Jason Pickett: A hundred percent. Yeah.

Dr Chelsea: So just backtracking to that, 'cause I love that point and I wanted to, um, highlight it.

Jason Pickett: Yeah.

Dr Chelsea: I wanna pause for just a second and say hello to any new listeners and thank you for being a part of the community. If you're new to the show today or found us recently, I have a special resource for you. It's simply the new listener resource, and it has my best recommendations for other podcasts or books to inspire you, as well as [00:32:00] all my current free resources that you can download, which includes things like the competition confidence checklist, or journal prompts that might help you today.

It's actually a simple Google Doc because I'm constantly updating it and sharing new things for dancers and dance educators, and I wanted a way to give you all the links in one place so you can grab your copy today and it will always update as new things are happening this year. You can get it at passion for dance podcast.com.

You'll see it right on the homepage. That's passion for dance podcast.com. Welcome to the community. I'm so happy to have you. Okay, let's get back to the show.

I want to turn to the business side a little bit if you would. 'cause I think you have certainly created a career that on the outside appears multifaceted.

And you said a little at the beginning how you have lots of different ways that you are creating and um, and teaching and interacting. I wanna start with the advice for the 18-year-old, like you were just mentioning [00:33:00] earlier about that 18-year-old who's like, okay, I've had my program mapped out for me or my high school team, and everything's done and I graduate now what?

And there's that exploration time. Do you have thoughts and advice for that phase?

Jason Pickett: Yeah, I mean, I think there's gonna be two, I think really just two types of people, one. Are gonna be the 18 year olds that are like, I know exactly what I want to do. And then there's gonna be the 18 year olds that are like, I'm not really sure. Um, and there's a little bit of nuance built into both of those, but I think really you can kind of put people into those two buckets coming outta studio.

Um, if you know what you want to do. You got a pretty easy time. 'cause you just, you just do that, you know, you, you don't, you don't overthink it. You just do it. Um, if you don't know what to do, I always advocate to people, like, just make the first decision because then the next decision becomes so much easier.

I think a lot of people get caught up in, , the fifth decision from now, and it stops them from just making a decision. [00:34:00] So, you know, and I notice this a lot when I talk to kids, I'm like, what do you wanna do? And they start getting really flustered and they start talking about all these things.

And I'm like, okay, let's pause. Do you want to go to college? Yes or no? Great. Do you know what schools you're interested in? No. Okay. Give me a list of your top three schools that you're interested in and you just keep going down these steps. Okay, cool. Now you have your top three. Do all of these schools have all the programs that you're interested in?

Great. You know, now you need to apply it. Once you make the first decision, the the rest of the decisions just kind of present themselves as you go. Um. And then just, you know, consistency and, and don't be afraid to, to try things. I think, you know, maybe to a fault I live and die by the fact that like, um, I, I used to be much more into like motivational content creators.

Um, and someone that I used to watch a lot of their content was Gary [00:35:00] Vaynerchuk and. You know, some of the things he says is like, okay, that's for, you know, dramatic effect for sure. But the one thing that I love that he says, and it's not just him, A lot of people say this, like, you can always just start over.

It, it, you know, you failing at something doesn't mean that it's the end of the world. So I've, I've kind of always lived by that is like I, I'm not on a timeline. I'm just existing and just doing things. And if it fails. I'll just do something else. I've always kind of had that, that mentality of let me just do the thing that I want to do.

If it works, great. If not, I gotta find something else to do. Um, and it's very much how I approach, you know, my business as well as like, what do I need out of life? That's something that a lot of people don't really think about, you know? Uh, there's. Not a lot of talk about money and, and the business end of things when it comes to dance, which I find odd.

But, um, I [00:36:00] think something that people miss a lot is like, it, it doesn't matter how much money I'm making or how much money anybody's making, what do you want to do? What do you want your life to look like? And then work backwards from there. I, I've done that so, so many times. It's like, you know, oh, I want to get.

A bigger home. Okay, what, what can I start or what can I create? Or what avenue of my current work can I expand to get that difference in income that I need? Um, and there's this quote somewhere, that's something along the lines of like, you know, wealthy people create, they create products and services too pay for their lifestyle. So they're not necessarily, you know, working the other way around. They're, they're saying, okay, I want this step up in quality of life, so what do I need to, to do to get there? Um, so I think if you're, if you're 18 and you're coming outta studio, you [00:37:00] just need to start making decisions.

That's the, that's the best advice that I can give you, is to start making decisions. I wanted to teach, I wanted to be a dance teacher, so. As soon as I made that decision for myself, as soon as I was like, okay, I wanna be a dance teacher, I called a friend of mine that I knew taught at a studio, and I said, Hey, could you get me a job teaching? then I went and interviewed, boom, there's the job. And then now I have that. Now I just do this thing. And it was like, okay, I wanna start guest. So I pick up the phone, I call studios in my area. Hey, I saw you guys at competition last week. I'm sure you saw my kids. Um, you know, we won first place overall. Could I, you know, do you need any choreography? Can I come teach a free class at your studio? Um, once you start making decisions, they just become infinitely easier to make.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Yeah. It's that next right step and not being caught up in, like you said, five decisions down the road. And I think there is that, okay, I want the end result of this kind of job or this kind of notoriety or [00:38:00] this end game, and it's then trying to go backwards, but that might not be your path to that thing

Jason Pickett: Right?

Dr Chelsea: I can, you know, now as someone in my forties, my path has changed a zillion times of what I thought I wanted and how it's pivoted similarly based on like, well, what do I want? And that changes in life and your values change and your family changes, and you know how much travel time you want or don't want, or, you know, all those things adjust.

Um, so I like that that next right step and the failure piece, there's so much value that comes out of failure and it's that. Perspective of like, what did I get from that? And I, like, one of the auditions that I didn't get that was the most crushing at the time, opened a door to a career I had for 15 years.

Like it. So you just don't know where it's going to go. Um, but to have that perspective, like you said of like, what did I get from this? And maybe I learned something, maybe it just opened a door. I didn't know it was there. Uh, but not to see it as a failure. End stop.

Jason Pickett: Yeah, a hundred percent.[00:39:00]

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Uh, I love that your, your company, your work, the no starving artists.

I think that falls into this, like you said, of dancers tend to be passionate people. We love what we do, and there was always an an, I don't know, an expectation of like, if you love it, you would do it no matter how much money you make. But now starting to shift to like. Let's make an actual career that is sustainable out of being an artist, and that we don't need to be starving artists.

We don't need to be martyrs. Is, will you speak to your no starving artist? Is that, am I reading too much into that or is that what

Jason Pickett: No, that's exactly the ethos. Yeah. Um, and, and also this sentiment that like, I always felt like an outcast inside of dance because I was more business-minded than a lot of my peers. And I always felt this sort of like that the mysticism is what made you an artist, right? Nobody knowing your success or you know, everybody thinking that you were only a [00:40:00] dancer and you, you didn't have another job. Right. That's still something that exists. A lot of people, they don't want people to know if they have another job or they, work a, what artists like to call a normal job. Um, and it was so starting no starring artists was kind of like a punch in the face to that of like, you know, that's great.

But also on the flip side, you guys are constantly complaining about how you don't have money. And how nobody pays you well, and nobody treats you well. You can't have your cake and eat it too. So either you, you carry yourself with a certain level of expectation and confidence and you, you pull from these other industries.

I mean, there's so much collaboration that happens in other industries. Which leads to people being successful. You know, if you, if you look at high level people in any industry, there's a lot of collaboration and there's a lot of networking and a lot of connection. That doesn't exist a lot in dance [00:41:00] because everybody feels like they're like out to get each other and everybody's stealing from each other, and it's just not the case.

Um, and I try to practice what I preach in the sense that I'm so open to like. If somebody needs something from me, whether it's direction on how to do something, the amount of people that have reached out to me like how to do dance critiques and I like send them a full video of my whole setup, all the links to all of the stuff, like I, I want other people to be successful because the more eyes there are on whatever it is that I'm doing. That means there's more customers for me as well.

So, the scarcity mindset gets really, really, really heavy inside of the arts. And the truth is like, it, it doesn't need to be, there's, there's enough for us all to eat if you're willing to do the work and you're willing to sort of sacrifice the, the mystic artist mentality that sort of [00:42:00] existed for so long. I mean, and it's, it's, it's always fascinated me because you, um, my wife and I went to, uh, Amsterdam this year and we went to, , a museum there and there was a lot of like, uh, really famous, uh, art pieces and there was a lot of explanation about.

You know, particular artist's life and things like that. And I was reading these sort of excerpts and I was like, this sounds like a terrible life. Like this is, this is awful. Like these, these people were like, you know, homeless half the time or like, you know, couldn't even afford to eat, but they're celebrated because their, you know, their art after the fact became really interesting.

I think that's great. I have no problems with that, but just for me and for my life, I would rather be celebrated now, I, I would rather, have, you know, a, a [00:43:00] quality of life now than when I'm gone, and I, I can't even enjoy it. So

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Jason Pickett: I don't know. I think, maybe it's preaching to the choir a little bit, but I just think.

The more we kind of come together and push this narrative of like, no, we can, we can stand on our business a little bit more and we can have expectations and we can have, you know, boundaries for ourselves as well. If, the majority of the industry started doing that. Everybody's quality of life would increase because these companies that hire us and these businesses that hire us, would've no other choice than to do that.

So I think it starts with transparency. It starts with openness. It starts with, you know, teachers sharing rates. It starts with all of that because it just stabilizes the market for everybody.

Dr Chelsea: Absolutely. I fully agree. I think there is that, it's like the competition backstage that we were talking about where you don't wanna share or you don't wanna anybody to know that you're nervous. It's the same thing that just carries through now as adults with [00:44:00] businesses, but that the people at the top are absolutely collaborating

Jason Pickett: A hundred percent.

Dr Chelsea: of the best work happens.

Jason Pickett: Yeah.

Dr Chelsea: So, yeah, I love that advice and that sentiment. Uh, I, I wanna leave with one last question. I have been starting in what I hope will be a series I wanna ask everybody, and something I've been thinking about of the lessons we learned from dance, the capabilities we've gained, the things that have we have as adults because of dance.

So would you finish the sentence for me? Like, because of dance I, what have you learned or gained that you think you've kept with you?

Jason Pickett: Because of dance, I have absolutely become a better leader and a better communicator. I think those are two things that I've carried over into all facets of my life. Um, I have had, sales jobs before. I've had jobs in a call center. I've had marketing jobs before, and [00:45:00] the things that I learned from being an educator and being a dancer absolutely carried over to all of those jobs, how to work with a team, how to talk to different people, how to lead a team. Um, and I think the second thing more recently is that because of dance, I am a better parent. Um, you know, getting the opportunity to interact with so many different kids and so many different personalities and, and ideas and thoughts and having to manage all of that and control a room of a bunch of little kids has amplified my patience to a point where, you know, it really benefits me at home. Um, so I think there's, there's so many things, uh, that come from dance and I think, uh, you know, there's a quote that I heard from Rhee Gold. I don't know if it's his quote or not, but, um, he always says, uh, dance lessons are life lessons.

And, um. [00:46:00] I, I just think it's, it's so true. There's so many things that we, we get to kind of work with kids on in the classroom that will carry over and make them so much more confident and so much more prepared for life if they really sort of like encapture them and, and take responsibility of them.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah, I love that perspective. Thank you. And I agree absolutely of how much we have the opportunity to give because of dance and then what we have gained from it. So thank you for sharing so much today. Uh, before we go, will you let people know where they can find you if they wanna work with you or learn more.

Jason Pickett: Absolutely. Yeah, you can find me on, uh, all social media at, hey, it's Pickett. Um, and my website is nsa dance.com. No starving artists dance.com. Um, so you can, you know, reach out to me on either or, if you have any questions, concerns. Um, or yeah, if you're interested in mentorship or dance critiques or having me come to your studio, whatever it may be, [00:47:00] I'm open to all of the above.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Thank you again. Open to collaboration. Right, which is why podcasts are so fun.

Jason Pickett: A hundred percent.

Dr Chelsea: yeah, thanks for your time today, Jason. It was wonderful to chat with you.

Jason Pickett: Absolutely. Thank you.

Dr Chelsea: Thank you for listening to Passion for Dance. You can find all episode resources at passion for dance podcast.com and be sure to follow me on Instagram for more high performance tips at Doctor Chelsea dot Otti. That's P-I-E-R-O-T-T-I. This podcast is for passionate dancers and dance educators who are ready to change our industry by creating happier, more successful dancers.

I'm Dr. Chelsea and keep sharing your passion for dance with the world.