212. Embracing the Beginner's Mindset: Lesley Logan on Confidence, Imposter Syndrome, & Positive Habits

212 - Lesley Logan

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Passion for Dance. I'm your host, Dr. Chelsea, and I'm on a mission to create happier, more successful dancers through positive mental skills. And today I am joined by Lesley Logan, a Habits mindset, and breathwork coach, who is the co-founder of online pilates classes.com. It's the largest catalog of free Pilates tutorials.

There are so many parallels between dance and Pilates. I loved this conversation and I know you will too. We talk about the importance of a mind body connection, dealing with imposter syndrome and why we have to embrace being beginners.

Lesley is also a very talented teacher, so I know you will gain insight from her teaching strategies for handling varying skill levels in classes and fostering a supportive environment. If you've ever felt like you were stuck in your head felt imposter syndrome, or just wish you were more confident, I hope you listen in today.

Here's my conversation with the inspiring Lesley Logan.

Welcome to [00:01:00] Passion for Dance. I'm Dr. Chelsea, a former professional dancer, turn sport psychologist, and this podcast is for everyone in the dance industry who want to learn actionable strategies and new mindsets to build happier, more successful dancers. I. I know what it feels like to push through the pain, take on all the criticism, and do whatever it takes to make sure the show will go on.

But I also know that we understand more about mental health and resilience than ever before, and it's time to change the industry for the better. This podcast is for all of us to connect, learn, and share our passion for dance with the world.

Dr Chelsea: Hi Lesley. Thank you so much for being here.

Lesley Logan: Chelsea, this is gonna be so fun. I think you're amazing. You're such a bright light. I love your smile.

Dr Chelsea: Oh, thank you. That's so sweet. Will you briefly tell us a little about yourself and what brought you into the world of Pilates?

Lesley Logan: Yeah. So as brief as I can be, I'll say I. I grew up as an athlete. My mom wanted me to be a dancer and my mom was a professional dancer and they took me to like the top ballet teachers and they [00:02:00] said, go take her away. She is not great. So, so my father won and I was in sports, um, a hypermobile body and at a, was at a time in my life when I graduated college, but my friends moved away.

So I was in my college town. But I'd been there for four years, but I had no friends. And so a girlfriend was like, Hey, you should come to Pilates with me. It's gonna be amazing. And I was like, that's an infomercial workout. It can't do what it says it's gonna do. But I really wanted a friend, so I actually went and. I was there in that first class, even the first exercise, I felt like what it was like to be in my body, to like, like felt parts of my, and here as an athlete, like I felt all my, I, all my body parts. I studied kinesiology, like I should know these muscles,

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: actually felt them. I also felt it was like to like not have like my mind go in this chaotic thing of like judging myself too much and like, what am I not doing right?

Or I should be better at this by now. Like I would just got to be in.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: and it was so fun and it was so cool to me how like one exercise led into the next, like as [00:03:00] that doesn't happen in the weight training room and like, so it was just, I was so intrigued and I left with like such a high. That I my work schedule so I can go every single day.

And the more I went, the more I was like, I don't like living here. Like I was so connected to my brain that I was able to understand like I'm in the wrong place. And so that like Pilates like literally changed my life in a way that like me to understand it's time for me to move. And then.

Through Pilates, I met some of the most amazing people and that's how I met my husband. So like it really is like so intertwined in my life. But I will say I, when I became a Pilates instructor, I had so much imposter syndrome that. I wasn't from the dance world.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: every famous teacher around me was like, New York ballerina, like all this stuff.

And they're like, well, I was doing Pilates, like, you know, as a 7-year-old and like I just discovered it and fell in love with it and became a teacher. And so people would assume based on my posture and my height and like my body, that I was a dancer. And I was [00:04:00] like, no. And so it took me years to recognize like what a skillset that was, but I got to be around so many dancers and see what it did for them. And I was lucky enough to train with Jake Grimes who was with Joseph Pilates, and he was sent to Joe to be fixed in air quotes. He was, he was a professional, uh, dancer in New York on Broadway doing all the things everyone wants to do. And of course, like all the dancers would have an injury or have an ache of pain and you would go to Pilates.

And so I just got to have this really great. that allowed me to like one, work through my imposter syndrome, and two, really feel I can be strong on the inside out and balance my imbalances. And then C, Joe Pilates created this work and why so many people love it from all walks of life.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Oh, what a wonderful story. I think you're right. I do. On the outside perceive that Pilates is just a lot of dancers. Like a lot of dancers, like their second career or like, you know, when they're done with their time on stage that they move into Pilates and [00:05:00] that makes sense that the imposter syndrome would be there.

I'd love to dig into that a little. If you're well, if you're willing to. I think so many people have that. I've had it in my own world as well. Uh, so you said you kind of were able to work through that. Will you talk a little through how you were able to work through that imposter syndrome?

Lesley Logan: Yeah. So first of all, I think it's important, you know, what is imposter syndrome? There's actually a lot of different versions of it. Like if you actually Google, like is Imposter? I think there's like six different ones, and one is that you're actually new at something. So I think for anyone listening who's new,

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: you've been dancing a long time, but now you became a teacher.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: moment you step into a new role,

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: are new at that, so you should feel a little bit imposter syndrome. That is a good healthy sign. You're not a narcissist, you're not an egomaniac. Like you've got some sort of things in check.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah,

Lesley Logan: if you're finding you have imposter syndrome around things that you already have the skill set talents for, something [00:06:00] tells me it's part of a perfectionistic tendency. Right.

Dr Chelsea: right.

Lesley Logan: I feel like everyone is like uhhuh.

Dr Chelsea: Uhhuh.

Lesley Logan: think that, I think that perfectionism runs rampant in the dance world 'cause it does run rampant in the Pilates world. And I found is that being per perfect, like having this perfectionist tendency as a child and then as an adult, and my Pilates career wasn't serving me because. I got to start studying with Jay, who studied with Joe. So here I was with him and I was like, I was like, okay, I'm gonna like perform the exercises, right? And he was like, Nope, nope, nope, nope. Don't do that. Try it again. And I was like, oh, but this looks like, but this is not, uh, this is ugly. Like this isn't great.

And he goes, yeah, but you're connected now. I learned that like be in practice and to be in process. To be curious is actually more important than to look a certain way or to be perfectly looking [00:07:00] in the thing that you're doing. And it took me, ugh, a good year of just like having to remind myself like, be a beginner.

What if you, what if you did it this way? And how does that look like? And the more I was able to unravel my perfectionism in my Pilates practice, the more the imposter syndrome that I felt around a lot of areas of my life just kind of dissipated because I started to recognize like it's actually okay to ask a question you don't know the answer to.

Dr Chelsea: Right. Yeah.

Lesley Logan: great. And if it's not, it's probably not the right environment for you. There's something wrong with that environment and um, and that gives you confidence. And then also the more we allow ourselves to be beginners in things or to be new in an exercise. to have a new way of doing it.

You know, the more we allow ourselves to do that, we actually learn so much more about ourselves and what we need and what's going on. And so here I was like trying to be perfect in my Pilates practice and actually missing out on so many connections and strengths [00:08:00] that would balance my imbalances.

And it actually took an injury to really force me to go, okay. You can't do it like that anymore. It's not working for you.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: why you're injured. And to allow myself to just really be in that curiosity state. And I will say like I still have moments where I'm like, oh, I'm feeling that self-doubt, that imposter syndrome. Uh, several years back, my friend invited me to go teach at an event that she was doing. There was 85 people in my class and my husband was miking me up and I was like, is this Mike on? And he's like, no. And I was like, I'm actually like really nervous. Like I feel like I feel like this. I feel like I shouldn't be here right now.

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: someone made a mistake and he goes, why? I'm like, well, there's 85 people. In this class.

Dr Chelsea: Yep.

Lesley Logan: taught 85 people at one time. And he goes, how is this different than teaching it what you'd already do? You're just gonna teach what you already do. So I will say like it's, if you have those moments, it's okay to like feel them.

And I think you have to express 'em as another way. I like was able to help myself as like, instead of it being in my head, like express it out. And then make sure you have [00:09:00] people around you who remind you that you actually, you're strong, you're capable, you were chosen for a reason, like.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Oh, so many good things in there. I really. Appreciate the idea of being okay with being a beginner. And it's something I talk to a lot of dancers about, especially I think in that tween teen age of, you know, you move up to the next level or you get a new role or the, like you were alluding to the first time you teach, you are like, oh, I've been dancing forever.

I can teach. And then the panic sets in, or the first time you choreograph or something where you have that. Yes, you've been doing something in this industry for a long time, but you haven't done this before or you haven't done that, and it's so powerful to say, I'm supposed to be a beginner. I'm not supposed to know how to do this.

And to be able to sit with that is so hard and I. I think for people who are goal-driven, as many dancers are, many people in Pilates, that perfectionist side, were like, I always have a goal. So if the goalpost keeps moving, [00:10:00] then you will constantly be a beginner because something you'll have to reach that new level, right?

Like it never stops. Do you feel that in your own life, that parallel.

Lesley Logan: I do understand that. And I think like, and there's an important thing, like one, I don't ever wanna sit on my laurels, also, you know, being on a mountain with no peak can be exhausting. So just making sure that like, sometimes you stop off at a plateau and reflect back at what you know

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: you have done so you can actually see that you've gotten stronger.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: learned things, you know, I think a lot of us like move the goalpost before we've celebrated. The goal, I find like celebrating along the way is really important. You know, like again. One of the things that makes Pilates, so, uh, and I'll just say I teach what Joe Pilates intended.

So like my, the Pilates I teach, I think a lot of dancers would like because like literally one exercise is supposed to flow into the next, like the more advanced you are, the less I see a space between an exercise and 'cause I don't have the talents of choreography and I don't have that in my body. I, it's one [00:11:00] of my things I struggle with the most is like taking a step up onto the equipment without it being this dramatic step, you know?

And like, so I feel like a bull at a China shop sometimes. And so I remember being in Jay's studio and having to truly be tested on these transitions. one of the things, that's the person who was watching me do it, like they're watching, taking notes and dah, dah, dah, gimme feedback after I'm over. And he was laughing because I would just go, nailed that. Slay that. I'm amazing. Like I would like in between everything I do, step up. I'm like, that was better than last time. Okay. Like I was, I had to give. So I would say if you suffer from self doubt, you have to be your own best cheerleader

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: recognize that you are. Doing better than the day before. And then the other thing that really has helped me is like, and I'm sure dancers do this in their own practice 'cause you have your own warmups and your own things you do. But in my Pilates practice, like my body is different hour to hour,

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: from day to day. I'm 42 now, [00:12:00] so like it's. Vastly different from week to week, depending on what's going on. And so, like today, for example, I had my workout at 6:00 AM I thought it was gonna be awful. I had the worst night's sleep.

Ended up being one of the best workouts I could do. Then I had to film something for live, do a live class for some people, bought some stuff and I like my hundred was not great. so from like three hours having a breakfast. And so, so when we allow ourselves to go, okay, well what did happen between those things?

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: that serving my body? What is, what is that doing? And so it allows you to really reflect and refine so that you can actually put yourself in a position to. Say yes to things at times that you know, you can show up as your best self.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: know you're not awesome in the morning and you actually know that about yourself, saying yes to things in the morning, of course it's going to like turn on every imposter, self-doubt, perfectionist problem, you know?

And so. It's important that we know about ourselves, and I think through movement, we really are being taught a lot more about ourselves than we actually pay attention to. 'cause sometimes we're focused on the [00:13:00] outward appearance of things. Like that's how I was with my Pilates practice, as opposed to the inward of what's going on,

Dr Chelsea: Right.

Lesley Logan: what's my body need to get

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: that I want?

I.

Dr Chelsea: Oh, I so resonate with that. I'm the same age and that same sense of. Paying attention inward and like learning how to do that and being able to notice where you're successful, where you're not. And I am a night owl and for the longest time I was like, I'm supposed to get up and exercise first thing in the morning.

I'm like, I am miserable and I hate it. And I, and then I'm actually not in a good cognitive space after, 'cause I'm so frustrated and half asleep. So when I do my. Exercise later in the day, like it's my afternoon pickup, it's so much better. And finally, the ability to look inward and say, what is helping me?

What is not? Just because all these people I admire have these wonderful morning workouts that I wish I could do. It doesn't actually serve me. And, and having that reflection. So I wanna highlight what you said about that, the pause for celebration and reflection. So I, I talk about small [00:14:00] wins a lot. I think that's a huge asset to overcome self-doubt.

And, and the flip of that, of gaining confidence, because I love that analogy. Something about, uh, what did you say? Like the mountain without a peak? Like where you just Yeah. It's like you have to notice, notice the plateaus, notice where you've been, uh, because if you don't ever look down, you're just only looking at everything in front of you.

You miss all the stuff you've already accomplished.

Lesley Logan: Yeah. Well, and I just wanna say about confidence. Like it took me a really long time to learn. You don't get confidence by waiting for it. actually get confidence by doing the thing you said you were gonna do.

Dr Chelsea: Yep.

Lesley Logan: you were gonna go to class. Like even if you felt like you were the worst person in class, the going to the class was the goal.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: go to this new class with this new teacher who makes me nervous. The going to the class is the confidence bucket. happens after that is extra credit. And a lot of [00:15:00] us are putting us overachievers. We put more pressure on ourselves. Not only do I have to go to the class, but I have to be the one that gets the compliment in the class where I have to be able to like the what, whatever we've, I've be able to be noticed.

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: no, you gotta pick a goal that you can achieve. every time you pick a small, tiny goal, like that's, I'm a habits coach as well and I, it's not like I coach people on habits. I just wanted to understand like how habits are truly made.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: what I found is like most of us are making, goals for ourselves of a habit that's too big, it's so layered and we aren't giving ourselves permission to like, make it the smallest goal.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: when people are like, I wanna start doing Pilates, but I don't have time, don't do full class, do the hundred

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: do the hundred. Oh, that's too much. Put a mat out.

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: start putting the mat out. If you happen to lay down on it, that's extra credit. Like we have to like make things smaller so that we can actually do it.

And for the perfectionist, that's gonna be the hardest thing you'll ever do is

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: just doing a little bit. You know, right before this I, I walked my dog around one [00:16:00] block.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: If you never walk around your neighborhood, don't set yourself up to go walk for 45 minutes in the morning. 'cause you heard that's a good thing.

No, you need 10,000 steps. If you don't get 10,000 steps, you need to start with a thousand steps. You know, like you have to start where you are. Otherwise, set yourself up to be for failure and that is not gonna help your confidence, which is not gonna help the imposters and it's not gonna help the self-doubt, you know?

And. hope that that gives anyone like some

Dr Chelsea: Yeah,

Lesley Logan: they can do

Dr Chelsea: absolutely.

Lesley Logan: more.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Or you're totally speaking my language. I talk a lot about how confidence comes from action and people are like, i'll do that when, right? Like I'll get there eventually rather than like, no, you have to do it. And especially with hard things, there's this cycle of you get the confidence to do hard things by doing the hard thing.

Like you don't, nothing else is gonna magically make that happen for you. You have to do the hard thing. And I love your ideas about habits that if the hard thing you wanna do feels. Absolutely overwhelming. Then what's the micro step to get [00:17:00] there? What's the next smaller piece? Uh, because I think we do set like this big hard thing that might feel completely unachievable, and so we just never do it.

Rather than breaking down, what's the smaller piece that will get you started in some way? Yeah.

Lesley Logan: Yeah, our brains are really powerful.

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: stories we, I mean we, we are told like, you know, the amount of thoughts that we have in the day are the same, and like most of them are negative. The thing about your brain, if you wanna make a habit, is you actually have to have positive I. around the thing.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: if you said you were gonna like wake up and go take this new class, the next level class, or, try out for a new role, and then you miss the first practice or you miss the signup or you miss whatever, and you go, oh gosh, I'm such an idiot. Like I can't believe I did that, da da da. And you just put all the shame around it, judgment around it.

Your brain will not like literally do whatever it can to forget. Because like, Ooh, that brings me stress. That brings me anxiety, that brings me shame. I don't like to feel those things, so [00:18:00] I'm going to ignore that thing. if every time it comes up, you think about it. Even just think about it. I'm so proud of myself.

I remembered I wanted to do that today. The emotions. Those happy emotions are what your brain feeds off of. We know our brain is like addicted to dopamine. It's wants that. So the more you can, going back to what we talked about earlier, celebrate those little things. Find ways to celebrate in the moment, not rewards.

Oh, next week I get to buy myself this thing. If I do this, no, it's too

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: Doesn't work, has he in the moment,

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: that's how you create habits and the moment you can even get friends around. Just to high five, you high five. Why were high fiving? Because I nailed that. You know, like what are they gonna say?

Oh my god, Chelsea is so full of herself. She high fives all the time. Like

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: that would, I would

Dr Chelsea: Aren't your friends then,

Lesley Logan: Yeah. They're not your friends and like, better to learn it earlier.

Dr Chelsea: right? Yes. Oh, absolutely. That ability to celebrate and instill the positive emotion. I think people also are used to just letting your emotions [00:19:00] just be what they are and without realizing, like you can intentionally. Change them, adjust them. Bring what you want into your life. And I especially, I get stuck kind of on the teen world because I think I'm with adolescents and 20 somethings a lot and when they feel negative about something like you said, then that just amplifies and it's worse and worse and worse and worse. But there's this sense of, well, that's just how I am. I'm just always anxious, or I'm just always cranky or I'm just never happy when I have to go into school in the morning.

I'm like, but you can change that. Like even if that is kind of your baseline, you can do something about that. So I love that advice to try to actually take control a little bit and intentionally find the good and celebrate.

Lesley Logan: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I used to teach a lot of tweens. Um, when I was in LA I had a couple who were really on a track in the ballet world, and it, I think they literally were the reason I don't have children, because I felt like I was raising them too. And I was like,

Dr Chelsea: [00:20:00] Yes.

Lesley Logan: good. Way too many conversations I never wanna have with someone's kid.

Uh, and on so many different things. But one of the things I noticed was just like, how. hard on themselves. I, I, I, it was like watching myself like, oh, was I this hard on myself when I was this age? Like, it was like this whole thing. And so I remember just being like, ladies, like you have your whole life to judge yourself like you have your your entire life.

And I promise you, there'll be plenty of people who will make it even worse in life. But like right now, this is like the easy part. Like this is where you learn the lessons. Like let's have some fun. And so I really try to make the Pilates fun for them, and their moms are like, oh, her leg needs to be straighter.

I'm like, her leg will get straighter. Get out of the room. Get outta the room. Yet you think she's not listening to me, and so you're wanting to make sure she listens to me because you're paying for this. I'm an adult. You think that means respect? She needs to be in process. She needs to be in a space where it's [00:21:00] safe to be in process and to be in practice. I. And she, that girl is in college now.

She, I mean, like went through some terrible bullying stuff, but now she's like an advocate for like all these different worlds of like how to help with teen bullying and like, she's a pageant queen and she's so confident and so strong, and I'm just so proud of her because it took us a bit, it took her mom a bit, but we worked on just like, how do you like, explore, like not just who you are, but actually what if, what if it's just how you are today.

1. What if there was more information? We just didn't know about it yet. What if? What if you weren't like that? And so it was just really fun to see that, watch her explore things meant and how they can be, and to see where she's at now.

Dr Chelsea: Oh, that's a lovely story. I do think parents sometimes unintentionally they push the perfectionism like you said, like, you're here, I paid for this 30 minute private. Like, what are you doing? You better be your absolute best the whole time. And it doesn't allow for the space to learn, like it doesn't allow for that [00:22:00] place.

I wanna pause for just a second and say hello to any new listeners and thank you for being a part of the community. If you're new to the show today or found us recently, I have a special resource for you. It's simply the new listener resource, and it has my best recommendations for other podcasts or books to inspire you, as well as all my current free resources that you can download, which includes things like the competition confidence checklist, or journal prompts that might help you today.

It's actually a simple Google Doc because I'm constantly updating it and sharing new things for dancers and dance educators, and I wanted a way to give you all the links in one place so you can grab your copy today and it will always update as new things are happening this year. You can get it at passion for dance podcast.com.

You'll see it right on the homepage. That's passion for dance [00:23:00] podcast.com. Welcome to the community. I'm so happy to have you. Okay, let's get back to the show.

Dr Chelsea: I wanna dig into something you said at the very beginning along these lines about how Pilates is really. I think just as mental is physical, right? Where you were saying you were present and kind of in your body. Will you speak to that part? 'cause I, I do think dancers who are in like a flow state, it's the same idea when you can stop thinking about it and just be in your body, it's such a magical thing.

Lesley Logan: Okay, so if you're doing, um. the pilates mat or reformer In Joe's world, there's an order, so you can think of it as like your warmups, you know, there's a, as an order or like how athletes, like all soccer players do the same drills, right? So there's an order to the mat and the reformer there are transitions, and the idea is that you to repeat the mat and reformer in your week in your practice. [00:24:00] So that your mind can actually focus on what's moving where. And I would imagine dance with a flow state, you're actually like feeling your body reach and feeling your leg reach to the ground and feeling your heart lift up. the same goes in Pilates. And so unlike weight training, um, a lot of these group fitness classes where there's a lot of talking and music and all the things, um, and there's, and that falls into the Pilates world now.

There's a whole group fitness Pilates. It's very entertaining. And, but like in a personal practice and Pilates. You actually, your mind body connection is so integral you actually are feeling like you're actually feeling your body get longer. As you do exercise, you're feeling your arms pull your legs in from your back.

Oh, nope, that wasn't my back, that was my shoulders. And so you get to have this like moment, it's like a movement meditation. Um, and my teacher, Sandy would say, it's not a meditation to me. Someone who has a hard time sitting still, it is a movement. Meditation. I can go into my place, practice pissed off, and I can leave [00:25:00] happy.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: I can go into it stressed, worried in fear, and I can leave confident and strong. And so if you struggle with that in your dance practice, Pilates might be the way to find a flow state because maybe you need to find it somewhere else so you can actually bring it into your

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: right? Um, especially if like you're, you've got a lot of pressure on yourself in your dance practice, but like for me it was this way to kinda my mind and my body.

And then what's so cool about that is how you. Not, I don't believe that how you do one thing is how you do everything always. But I do believe in a lot of ways it is. And so for me, if I'm rushing through my Pilates practice, I, I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm rushing. I'm probably rushing a lot of things, right? If I am lethargic, am my Pilates practice, I'm like, oh, what is going on?

Did I not have enough sleep? Did I not have enough fuel? Did I have to do this? And so having that mind body connection allows me to know what my, what's going on in my mind and body today. What's going on in my head? What's going on in my body? [00:26:00] What does it need? So then as I go into my business, I go into my life.

As I go into my hobbies, I can actually make adjustments. You know, you mentioned like you don't like to workout in the morning. I loved to workout in the morning yesterday, luteal cycle three days before. No, I was just like,

Dr Chelsea: Not happening.

Lesley Logan: not happening, but I, I also knew I needed self care.

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: I can listen to my body, because I have that mind body connection from my practice.

I can go what self-care would feel good and I could run through all the options that I had. I go, I think a sauna blanket sounds great. Let me lay in there and listen to some good music. And I got outta there. I'm like, I'm ready to start the day. Right? Like I'm So I think like. so important because also for dancers, your body is your, is your business whether you're making money off it or not.

Like that is what you use. And if you don't have a connection with your mind and body, is where imbalances and injuries can occur because you are not recognizing when you are pushing hard too hard or when you could be pushing harder.[00:27:00] 

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, and I think when dancers are trying to learn something new. There's the separation, right? Where maybe they watch their teacher or they're looking in the mirror or something to try to mimic what they're doing, and they're just, how do I copy that picture rather than, what should that feel like in my body?

And I think that's what I'm hearing you say of like that shift of not just copying the picture that you see. Of that teacher in front of you, but what does that muscle feel like in my body to place my limb in that place? Or what should my core feel like? And I know I got there eventually in my ballet world as well, and it just changes how you approach the repetitive warmups, right?

Like, so ballet is similar. You go through the same series of, of exercises, pretty much the same order, not a lot of variability. And it should and does allow for that space to, uh. Get out of your head a little bit and just let it, let you feel it. And I think a lot of dancers struggle with that. Or they'll tell [00:28:00] me, or I guess it's teachers who say, my dancers just need to get outta their head.

They just, they're wonderful in practice, and then they go to perform and they're all in their head. I'm like, well, they're probably actually in their head in practice too, and they just don't see it. Yeah.

Lesley Logan: I think you were, uh, you know, um, I taught this one professional, uh, ballet dancer in Eisen West Hollywood. And she's like, you should come one day. And I was like, I'm not gonna come to your class. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. She's like, you just need socks and you're just gonna come, we're literally just doing this footwork stuff.

And I was like, okay. So I went and I, I like. Immediately felt impossible. Well, of course it was imposter. I'm, why am I in this professional ballet's dance class? Like, I don't know. There's like girls doing all this feet stuff and they're doing their, like all the things that they need. And I remember she stood in front of me, she's like, Lesley, she's like, just do your Pilates. seen you move in the studio. Just do your Pilates. And I had to go, okay, they're taking their leg over and they're putting it back and they're taking it over and they're putting it back. Okay. So that's the head. I see it. I [00:29:00] thought it, now I feel it. What does it feel like to move my leg this way? That way. And then like just, you know, so I will say when you're learning something new, we went back to being a beginner. You are gonna look at it, be heady about it,

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: do have to get in your body. And then we all, and this is hard, I think probably in the dance world, but I do think it's getting better because we do have so many more different body sizes that are being celebrated. My legs are the same, in same as my husband who's six one. So what? Right, and I'm five nine, you guys. So I'm going to look different doing a move

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: someone who is five nine, but has a more balanced torso to legs. I can look like them.

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Right.

Lesley Logan: It's not going to happen. So I have to go, okay, what, what, well, what, where am I moving from my center?

How does this work if I, and, and in Pilates, I think, uh, dancers will appreciate this. In, in Pilates, we actually think that the legs start around like the shoulder blades and they reach the toes, and then the arms start down by like the sacrum and they reach the [00:30:00] fingers so that when you move your arms and legs away from each other, you're actually getting longer in your center.

Right?

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: then you're moving from your center. So. idea of like feeling, what is it? How do I get in my body? The more you're in your body, you can actually go into that flow state or you can actually lift that leg further or what would happen if I pushed this leg down into this floor more?

Could that leg lift higher? Um, and so I think, and oh, that actually hurts.

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: Then we can actually understand where's the imbalance before an injury occurs. Right. And I think the more people can be there. But I, I also think you mentioned the parents. Parents and teachers. And for the teachers who are listening as Pilates instructor, I have to tell my Pilates instructors I teach all the time. Be careful what you say because your students want to do what you said. They want to rise to what you are asking. And so they don't want to disappoint you. And sometimes what we're saying it makes sense, but how they can translate, it might [00:31:00] not be the right thing for them. And so we have to be mindful of like, are we bringing the bodies up to what we're asking them to do? as a Pilates teacher, I give a client an exercise and it goes horribly wrong, whoa, that was not what I expected, I have to go. Okay. What did I think? What did I see in their body that told me they could do this? And then what isn't happening in their body? And then what can I give them instead?

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: I can take 'em back and take 'em into exercises that can build them up. And I can even say, here's why I thought you could do this based on these things. what I'm seeing, that's why we're doing this. And really bring them in on the journey of building them up for what they need to do.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Oh, I love that philosophy about that, about teaching where trying to figure out why it didn't work instead of, I think teachers can get stuck on, try it again. Try it again, try it again, and. Again, from a good place of, I really believe you can do this, and they probably can, but just the go again, go [00:32:00] again, go again.

Especially if the dancer is stuck in their head about it, uh, and they're trying to force their body to look like the teachers or look like the dancer next to them. I totally also relate to that comparison piece of trying to make it look like them rather than what your body can do. Uh, but as a teacher saying, okay, if this didn't work.

Like, let's backtrack a little bit and I was gonna ask you, and you just kind of went there anyway about, as a teacher trying to help someone who is trying something new and they fail, like they keep trying and they're failing, or they keep trying and they can't get it. If you have an approach as a teacher to help someone who's like, oh, I can't do this.

Lesley Logan: Yeah, so there's a couple things. First, I like to figure out if there's a fear there.

Dr Chelsea: Hmm.

Lesley Logan: there's a beautiful woman, her name is Mariska Breland. I do know that I believe she's a very much has a d dance background, and then she also does a lot of stuff in the neural world, but she, there's a, a term called kinesia phobia. And a fear around [00:33:00] it. it's important to address the fear. What are you actually are? Are you afraid?

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: afraid of it? And that's okay. Like you have to ask it and you have to figure out as a teacher, like how do I ask this? Like, I think you can do this. There's a block. And I just wanna know, is there a fear around anything that we're doing? Because you can't actually say, don't be afraid. You actually have to say, okay. So in, there's a lot of Pilates moves that are really scary for people. You go upside down, you like move, you twist your body. There's all these great things. And so when I have clients who are like, oh, I'm I, I'm, I can't do that, I'm, I'm like, okay, here's how we're gonna get out of it.

If you think you're gonna fall, I just want you to bend your knees and sit down. That's how you're gonna get out. You get scared, bend your knees and sit down. Right? So as long as they know how to get out of something that they think they could fall on, that probably is gonna help.

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: it's not a fear, if it's a head thing. Then I think it's important to like take a step back and show them, put 'em back in a confidence place, put 'em into moves they can do well and build them up. Joseph Pilates would never end you on [00:34:00] an exercise that was not something you were good at. So at Joseph Pilates studio, you would do your mat, you do your former, and then you hit, you had what was called your exercises, and I'm sure dance teachers have this too.

You've got your ways, you warm your students up, but then you also have things that they need to do more of, right? Because they need this strength or whatever. But he always ended on a high note, something that you felt so good about. So when you leave, you leave with that confidence. When you come back the next day, it's very different.

It's not, you don't wanna leave and then go, oh, that's it, and you failed at that again. Well, we'll try better next time. No, and then the other thing about saying, try again. Like, I get that, 'cause sometimes they just have to get the movements in their body to trust it. I, I, my teacher Jay one time said, what are you thinking about? So what are you thinking about? And I was like, I'm thinking about doing this, and I bet most of your students who are struggling with something, what they're thinking about is not what they should be thinking about.

Dr Chelsea: Right. Yeah.

Lesley Logan: And so if you can get to that, it'll help you understand like [00:35:00] even like what you're saying, that you could change because I told someone to reach one time.

I'm like, oh, reach, reach, reach. And they're reaching, well, their shoulders are coming in their ears, their head is out like this. And I'm like, oh. Well, that's not what I meant, right?

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Right.

Lesley Logan: have to adjust myself. And I think for the teachers listening, like the self-awareness we have to have is so, is almost more important than the skillset we have to teach.

Because if you aren't aware of what you're saying and then how that's interpreting and then also being enough to go, that worked for the other class, it's not working for this class,

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Oh,

Lesley Logan: okay too.

Dr Chelsea: yeah. Oh, that's great advice. I think we use different phrases for the same challenges, right? In psychology, calling it mental blocks, but where dancers have that. Like I just can't make my body do it. And 'cause often potentially rooted in fear. And I think that's such great approach to talk about it.

Let's figure out what this is, not from a place of [00:36:00] judgment, but just what is this? Are you actually afraid? And then making it feel safer either in again, how to get out of it is a great way to do it. Or adding protection around it. So in dance, sometimes maybe adding a mat or adding a spotter or something, but then also.

What you were saying about going back a little bit to like, what can you do confidently and we'll build back to that. And I think that's, yeah, that same philosophy within dance and to your other point that I love about teachers. Paying attention to our cues and like how you say something and how you get the dancer's body to do what you were thinking, uh, and then noticing when your cue did not land or they're using it, uh, incorrectly.

I think that's another great, great point with that.

Lesley Logan: Well, there's so many learning styles, right?

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: am a kinesthetic visual learner, so I need to see it. I need to feel it. not an auditory learner,

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: the, sometimes the cues actually throw me off because I'm listening to that [00:37:00] and then I'm like, oh, you want me to do that? That's not what I saw or felt. Right. So then there's, now I'm in my head, right, and, but then there's auditory learners. You'll know them because of the ones that repeat back what you said, like they're the ones who ask the question. You're like, yeah, I literally just said that.

Dr Chelsea: Right.

Lesley Logan: Right.

Dr Chelsea: They needed to hear themselves say it. Yeah.

Lesley Logan: Exactly. They do. And so I think like it's important to understand learning styles, but then also like. You know, letting them in on the journey. You guys did so good with this. Now we're learning this.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: teaching them to do the reflection, reflect back, that was great. That's why we can do this. So even if they struggle with it, they know that they're ready for it. And I

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: um, I think it's really easy for us to assume that they know that there's a layer and a level and that we're working towards these things. Even adults don't know that. You know, like even when I teach adults, they're like, I can't do that. And I'm like, okay, well here's why I think you can do it. Here's why it's on my list for you to add in today, [00:38:00] because we've done it over here and we've done it over here, and now we're gonna do it over here.

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: you know, like just important to kind of like take them in on the behind the scenes of what it is and you'll be surprised the autonomy that you get from your students. And isn't that what we want anyways?

Dr Chelsea: Oh, absolutely. I think bringing them in is wonderful, especially if you're giving them a challenge where you can say, this is supposed to be hard. I think you can do it, or this is building on what we've been doing for weeks and maybe it's not actually out of left field. Like you have been training this and you will be able to do this.

Let's give it a try. Uh, that's great advice. I wanna ask one other thing about teaching, uh, because I get the sense you probably teach, and correct me if I'm wrong, some like individual and small classes and then like you said, huge rooms of people, right? And so that. Either that difference or also what I'm thinking about is like within a class when you have varying levels, and I think a lot of teachers really struggle with implementing a lot of [00:39:00] these tools like, but I have talent all over the place in this class in front of me.

Advice around that.

Lesley Logan: Oh my gosh. Okay. So the way that Joe Pilates wanted me to teach and like how Jay Grimes taught me to teach. Small groups and individuals is very little talking whatsoever. It's actually like are using the exercises to teach the body what you want. So if I'm seeing their shoulders on their ears, I'm gonna give them exercises that'll put their shoulders on their back. I'll ask 'em what they feel and I'll say, I want that same thing back over here. Right? So

Dr Chelsea: Hmm.

Lesley Logan: the exercises to teach the exercise. Now of course I'm talking, of course I'm giving like directions, but I'm not queuing. In the sense of like giving finessing corrections, especially to someone who's new, I'm gonna use, I'm gonna watch their body, tell me what it needs and give them that.

So I would say like for one, when you're teaching one-on-one in small groups, it's a little easier to kinda like see what the level is and then go, okay, what do they need to get better at [00:40:00] that? What moves, what warmups, what skill sets, what dance moves? Do I have to give them that? Or does it have to be something completely outside of the dance world that you give them to?

Right.

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: For the larger groups that have all the levels. One of the things, if you have, if you have read the book about the DISC model, I think

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: really quite great for group fitness and for

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Lesley Logan: Okay. And I don't remember all the colors, but you'll have those, so you have the people who want it to start on time.

You have the people who want it to be fun. You have the people who are like in the front row. And so one of the things I like to do is I actually teach everything to what I think the middle level is. And I use, I have exercises that I use to kind of help me see like what. What's going on

Dr Chelsea: What is the actual middle? Yeah.

Lesley Logan: is the actual middle? I always tell people, if you listen to me, how I, I'm gonna call it the name of the exercise. So if you know it, go ahead and do it. If you don't, I'm gonna direct how to do it at the level [00:41:00] that it was intended. Like the way that Joe Pilates, intended this exercise to be done. If that seems crazy to you, for the next sentence. 'cause it will be how to level it down.

Dr Chelsea: Hmm.

Lesley Logan: And if you want more. I will give it to you. Uh, I'll give you an advancement on the third rep.

Dr Chelsea: Okay.

Lesley Logan: tell people, here's the lay of the land. The first rep is gonna be how to do it as an ideal. rep is gonna be a modified version.

Third rep's gonna be advanced because t typically your advanced people should know those things unless they just discovered on the second rep while they could do more. Right. And then I also love to use. Bodies in the front, those front row people. I love using front row people to help demonstrate. And I'll go, Hey guys.

I'm seeing, okay, hold on. Stop. Okay. I'm seeing a lot of you overuse your neck or overuse your, your thinking about this too much. So I'll take a front row person and I'll go, do you see how, like this is what she's doing here. This is what she's doing. That's great. This is where I can see more connections. This is where I can get more out of her. [00:42:00] Let's do it again.

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: that again. And you, what happens is that you gave, you gave people a visual to look at so it wasn't just auditory and you gave them a moment to like stop and repeat. And I think that's really important. If

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: a group class you're teaching all the time. I'm sure people know this already, and I, I, so forgive me if it's like a little bit duh, Lesley, but like, introduce yourself to the brand new person first

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: 'em to the people around them.

Dr Chelsea: Hmm. No, that's great. Simple but effective. Yeah.

Lesley Logan: so one seen. Two, they know you saw them in that space. And I enter, go. Okay, Sally over here.

She's brand new too. So if you get confused, you can look at Sally

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: come a few times, but so she's probably at the same level as you. Or if that's confusing you. 'cause Sally's new. You can look over here at Debbie and Debbie's been coming a long time, but I don't want Debbie to scare you. So don't let Debbie scare you.

Just know that that's on your path. And so now they have two people, now they're friends. With those two people at least connected to them. So

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: they come back again. They're not feeling like a loner, you know? And

Dr Chelsea: Right.

Lesley Logan: really important. And [00:43:00] then also the other thing that is, um, a skillset that I am glad I have, and I don't know that every teacher's taught this.

'cause let's be honest, not a lot of us become teachers, not bec like there's no training school to become a teacher. Oftentimes, like I know I went through Pilates teacher training, but like, they're either really good at teaching you with one-on-ones, but not groups.

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Lesley Logan: But what I learned is like how can you use your hands to help the newbie, but your words to teach the advanced.

Dr Chelsea: Okay.

Lesley Logan: So, 'cause the newbie, the words is too much. They're trying to figure out their right from their left. So I try to use a touch cue to help them while I'm talking to the advanced people, because ideally they know enough, they know my words, they know my style enough to be able to do that.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Oh, that's great advice. I'm thinking about in the dance world when you like start over with a new season or if somebody comes in. You said kind of in the middle. And a lot of times they see the most advanced person in the room and have the immediate imposter syndrome we were talking about of like, [00:44:00] Nope, can't do that.

I don't belong here. But if you're able to highlight like, oh, this person's been training here for a long time, this person's also new. And just like setting a very clear expectation of like, don't let this person freak you out, like you can get there. Uh, but having that reminder of. You're supposed to be a beginner right now and we're here to support that and that's great 'cause it's so easy to walk into a room, see the most amazing dancer in the room and say, Nope, I'm not that.

So I'm out and I don't belong here. Yeah.

Lesley Logan: then just a reminder, like back to that self-awareness. My husband went to a yoga class, um, last, last weekend, and I was teaching a class at home so I couldn't go. Thank goodness. I think I probably would've like the girl has had so little self-awareness. They were doing yoga outside and she kept saying the ceiling and

Dr Chelsea: Oh.

Lesley Logan: sounds picky, but like. People can tell you're not present. You're doing a script,

Dr Chelsea: Hmm.

Lesley Logan: like if, you know, like take, make sure you're using the room, the specific room you're in to give directions. And then [00:45:00] also that when you are teaching things like notice if you like, there is of course economy of words like this gets people into that move the quickest. then also, are you watching people and are they doing what you said? And if not. Like, we might have to check ourselves again, if it's new season, they're new to you, you know, like it, it might've worked for the last group, but maybe this group, you need to like, take it back a notch to bring 'em up to that level.

And so just having that self-awareness, is really helpful. I like to take the responsibly on me. If they're doing it not the right way, first, I'm gonna take responsibility on me. Now, if I go up and I tell them and they're like, I don't wanna listen to you, then I obviously don't have to take that responsibility.

I'm gonna let that go. But if I can see that they're trying, then it's just on me to go, how am I gonna get this body up to what I need them to get? Um, what's their learning style? What do they need to see? What they need to feel? What do they need to do?

Dr Chelsea: Yeah, great. I would love to wrap this up by helping dancers who are listening that maybe haven't found Pilates yet. Like , where do they start? What? [00:46:00] What to look for if they wanna start a Pilates practice.

Lesley Logan: Oh, I love this question so much. So first of all, the best thing you can do because your body is so important. I don't want you to end up in just like a random, you know, Pilates class. Like you have to understand like, we're not in a regulated industry. So some people are trained weekend and some people spent tens of thousands of dollars to be trained. So if you're going to wanting to go in person, look for places where the teacher was comprehensively trained, and the bio look for, you wanna see things like 450 to 600 hours, like that kind of stuff is really gonna be great. Um, but honestly, like if. If you wanna do it the way that the dancers, like I got to study Under did it, they literally did it on their own. They did the mat practice. They just showed up to the studios early and just did the mat work. Like the mat work is gonna be really excellent for you. Of course, got some amounts that need more attention, like the reformer and Cadillac are gonna be great things, but you're already busy with your, if I know dancers, they're busy, you're busy, people moving a lot.

So the mat practice is a great place to start. I do have, if you're brand new at it, I do [00:47:00] have a workshop. It's free that actually teaches you 20 moves, how to do it, and then a 15 minute class. If those moves together, one flowing into the next one, into the next, it's just full body in fifteen.com and you can go there. And you can take the workshop, learn the moves, and then you can do it. And the goal is that you actually memorize it and you can just do it on your own as a warmup. You can just take 15 minutes to warm your body up. It helps with all the spine shapes that your body needs to do.

Flexion, extension, tall side, bend, and twisting. Um, so I would recommend doing that, but I think most people will prefer like a mat practice just 'cause it can be so accessible and you can do it on your own.

Dr Chelsea: Uh, wonderful full body and 15, I'll definitely make sure that is linked where you're listening. And just to add to that, where can people find more about you and your work specifically? Thank you for everything you've shared today. It's been wonderful. I want people to find you.

Lesley Logan: Well, thank you. So online pilates classes.com is our website and, um, we have thousands of free tutorials on Pilates and blogs. And, um, we also have [00:48:00] online classes that are 30 minutes to 45 minutes long. And so if you do want a guided workout, you want the community, you want people to provide feedback. Positive feedback on what you're doing and giving you help. Um, then you'll wanna go to opc online Pilates classes.com if you wanna follow me. And that's also, uh, the same thing on YouTube. It's youtube.com at online Pilates classes. Um, but if you wanna follow me, I am at Lesley Logan on Instagram. And, um, I talk a lot about self-doubt, self care, and Pilates, like those are kind of my, my go-to things.

Dr Chelsea: Thank you so much, Lesley. This was wonderful and I loved getting to know you and getting to know more about Pilates. Thank you.

Lesley Logan: this is great. What a fun afternoon. Thanks for having me.

Dr Chelsea: Thank you.

Thank you for listening to Passion for Dance. You can find all episode resources at passion for dance podcast.com and be sure to follow me on Instagram for more high performance tips at Doctor Chelsea dot Otti. That's P-I-E-R-O-T-T-I. This podcast is for passionate dancers and dance educators who are ready to change our industry by [00:49:00] creating happier, more successful dancers.

I'm Dr. Chelsea and keep sharing your passion for dance with the world.